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Nyxt: The Hacker's Browser

nyxt.atlas.engineer

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Re: Nyxt: The Hacker's Browser

#171

Post by mst »

p-e-w wrote: post #105
brabel wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have trouble hitting [ how do you ever program anything? I use multi-language keyboard layouts and switch all the time... when coding (or using "hacker" software like this, which is completely based on emacs [and as far as I know is written in Common Lisp], not vim), just use a layout that makes it easier (in my case, en-AU).

Entering [ works just fine on QWERTZ: You simply press AltGr+8. But this doesn't work in shortcuts, e.g. when combined with Ctrl. That is, AltGr+8 generates the character '[', but Ctrl+AltGr+8 is not the same as pressing Ctrl+[ on keyboards that have a dedicated [ key. This bug is decades old, and every Vim derivative suffers from it.

Does that mean that one could trap Ctrl+AltGr+8 and map it to the same effect? (and the same for 7/9/0 if required)

If so, I'll try and remember that if ever tempted to use Ctrl and {[]} together I need to handle that as well.

Re: Nyxt: The Hacker's Browser

#172

Post by knerz »

trinix912 wrote: post #142
SanderNL wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and calculators have the same issue. I mean, what about Indian numerals, Ethiopian and how does one perform a proper Coptic calculation using these awful devices with showstopping UX flaws? It’s time we pander to each and every culture’s random conception of symbol manipulation and end this era of universal, gate-keeping, commonality. The time of personalized input devices is upon us. Vim and thus this browser is…

Remember that most European keyboards don't have [ and ] accessible on the first/second level. That's already half of the western civilization, not some random's custom layout.

https://eurkey.steffen.bruentjen.eu/

Has the US keys on the first/second levels and most/all special symbols for European languages easily accessible w/ modifier keys. Entirely removed the need to switch keyboard layouts for me.

Re: Nyxt: The Hacker's Browser

#173

Post by mst »

p-e-w wrote: post #111
can16358p wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This! I've been programmer for about 20 years now and I could never understand why Vi(m) or Emacs exists with those weird bindings which are completely different from pretty much everything else. I'm not that old, maybe they had their cake in 80s, but perhaps time to move on to something modern which would have modern defaults (if many need to customize there's something wrong with the defaults) that appeal to all ke…

> I could never understand why Vi(m) or Emacs exists with those weird bindings which are completely different from pretty much everything else. Inertia, traditionalism, elitism, insider culture, ignorance, "good enough" mentality, blind spots, cargo culting, ... There's really no mystery here. The reasons are the same as in every other part of society where outdated conventions are maintained despite massive, obvious…

I use heirloom vi (while making it clear when asked that I doubt the person asking me should do the same ;)

I was basically forced into learning vi to begin with (editing things on a -very- heterogenous collection of servers) but then found after a few weeks that I found it surprisingly pleasant and stuck with it.

Then again I don't recall sending a vi instance anything involving the control key except for Ctrl-C, Ctrl-L and Ctrl-Z.

Re: Nyxt: The Hacker's Browser

#174

Post by xigoi »

deafpolygon wrote: post #93
throwawayadvsec wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what kind of "hacker" use windows as a main OS though? windows is only for gaming and testing the software you ship

What about Windows that makes it unsuitable? In fact, the majority of "hacking" and the proliferation of "hacking culture" over the history has been done on Windows - not any flavor of UNIX like many would have you believe. Don't gatekeep.

> What about Windows that makes it unsuitable?

It's proprietary and user-hostile, with things like tracking and forced updates.

Re: Nyxt: The Hacker's Browser

#175

Post by mst »

anthk wrote: post #168
p-e-w wrote: post #70

Looks like Nyxt, a browser "inspired by Vim", inherits Vim's showstopper bug: Being unusable on many non-US keyboards, at least with the default bindings. The 'switch-buffer-previous' command is bound to C-[, which cannot be pressed e.g. on QWERTZ layouts because the [ character requires AltGr. This is like sending around text files encoded in Windows-1252 and expecting things to just work. Sorry folks, but it turns…

I am a Spaniard which I learnt to use the ES layout as the 100% of the Spaniards and then I realized it sucked a lot for programming symbols. If you use Linux/BSD for programmaing and don't run something like "setxkbmap us -option ctrl:swapcaps -option compose:rwin" (or menu instead or rwin in order to use menu+'+a to type á, you are losing your time. Stuff like "recogerá" can be easily written with menu+' made solel…

The other approach I've seen is having some sort of weird key combination (like "hitting both shift keys at once") to switch back and forth between two layouts. I saw somebody using it for QWERTY vs. DVORAK but it seems like it'd be viable for two language layouts too.

Re: Nyxt: The Hacker's Browser

#176

Post by sylware »

Still using big tech c++ diareha of webkit(apple) or blink(google).

Please, do acknowledge this is nearly pointless.

Stop coding that please: first thing first, namely code a web engine in a plain and simple language (like C89+ with bits of c99/c11) and not using that any grotesque and absurd language syntax like c++... even though the core of the issue is the web itself.

Re: Nyxt: The Hacker's Browser

#177

Post by mst »

cryptonector wrote: post #141
doctor_eval wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t really understand. Many of the common bindings in Vim use modifiers. How do you navigate back a word without a modifier? Do you just exit editing mode like in the old days? Do you just forgo this and arrow back? In case it’s not clear from my tone, I’m totally sympathetic to relieving injury, and whatever works, works. I just don’t understand how Vim bindings help, and am genuinely curious.

> Do you just exit editing mode like in the old days? Yes! I very much do. I do not use the arrow keys for cursor movement in edit mode.

In fact, it got to the point where I realised I was only ever hitting the arrow keys by accident while in insert mode so my vimrc now contains:

    inoremap   
    inoremap  
    inoremap     
    inoremap
(the rest is at https://trout.me.uk/X11/vimrc)

Re: Nyxt: The Hacker's Browser

#178

Post by pineaux »

tourmalinetaco wrote: post #145
mattigames wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if Vim had the very same problem for US keyboard layouts it would have never become the standard choice for "hackers" (e.g. in a parallel universe where Vim was created by a Japanese for Japanese keyboards), so yeah, in general hackers hate when their tools don't work out of the box, hackers expect the very basics of any tool to work out of the box, changing settings should be a step to accommodate it to your liking,…

> if Vim had the very same problem for US keyboard layouts it would have never become the standard choice for "hackers" Not necessarily, since it’d just be a matter of popularizing Vim + the community’s preferred shortcuts as a starter instead. > in general hackers hate when their tools don't work out of the box Indeed we do. However, we don’t give up on something if it doesn’t work. We simply hack at it until it wor…

I love the true scotsman arguments in this subthread. Defining "hackers" as this or that.

Re: Nyxt: The Hacker's Browser

#179

Post by cobbaut »

Gud wrote: post #147
trinix912 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember that most European keyboards don't have [ and ] accessible on the first/second level. That's already half of the western civilization, not some random's custom layout.

I switch between keyboard layouts all the time, depending on which input language I need to use. I simply cycle between the langugaes I write in(Swedish, German and English) by pressing alt and caps lock. I accept that U.S. English is the computer lingua franca.

Same (US-qwerty and BE-azerty). Which is easy on a blank keyboard.

Re: Nyxt: The Hacker's Browser

#180

Post by usrbinbash »

p-e-w wrote: post #70

Looks like Nyxt, a browser "inspired by Vim", inherits Vim's showstopper bug: Being unusable on many non-US keyboards, at least with the default bindings. The 'switch-buffer-previous' command is bound to C-[, which cannot be pressed e.g. on QWERTZ layouts because the [ character requires AltGr. This is like sending around text files encoded in Windows-1252 and expecting things to just work. Sorry folks, but it turns…

> C-[, which cannot be pressed e.g. on QWERTZ layouts because the [ character requires AltGr.

So the user just presses Ctrl-AltGr-[, what's the problem? And changing keyboard layouts or keybinds, isn't something that someone using vim should have a lot of trouble with anyway.

> It's bad enough that a text editor that ignores the past few decades of UX research is still in widespread use,

Maybe that's because a lot of people using it decided that the "decades of UX research" produced precious little of worth. That's because alot of the "research" done in areas that are, by their nature, heavily opinionated, produces, what a surprise, mostly opinions.

And when we take a giant pile of opinions, and pile them all on top of one another, well...

...that's how we ended up in a world where, somehow, people now actually have to wait for an application to open, like they did in the early 90s, on machines that are orders of magnitude more powerful. Where webpages load 20MiB of giant hero images, useless framework code and spyware, to display 4 lines of text. Where applications get more "modern" and "streamlined" by somehow lowering information density, losing functionality and getting less self-explanatory.

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