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Hands-Free Coding (2020)

joshwcomeau.com

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Re: Hands-Free Coding (2020)

#41

Post by aagd »

fouric wrote: post #33

As someone who may slowly be working his way toward RSI, I'd like to try to mitigate it before I get to the point of the author. To that end, I'd like to try to build a maximally ergonomic setup (for the back and neck in addition to the hands) that doesn't necessarily have to conform to the standard chair+desk setup (e.g. a custom setup where one lies on their back with their monitor suspended above their face and th…

i'd recommend experimenting a bit, what works best for you. eg. for me lying flat on my back watching a monitor above me works for maybe 20min, then my eyes get dry, very uncomfortable. also check out http://www.earth360.com/ergonomic.html

Re: Hands-Free Coding (2020)

#42

Post by spit2wind »

Developed RSI and overcame it through learning stenography with Plover. I've used it exclusively (only using the keyboard to login to the computer) for 2 years. I'm a full time developer and it works great. There's a learning curve for a few months before being able to switch to stenography completely. Practice was running drills with a metronome for 15 minutes or so a day, progressing to the next lesson after hitting my target of 70 wpm at 95% accuracy. Comments (generally on this topic) often make it seem harder than it is or raise scares about impracticality. Practice was boring. However, I found that 30 wpm is plenty sufficient to do programming on the job, as thinking takes far more time than putting characters on the screen. Very rarely, at least for me, am I writing continuously for more than a moment. Stenography is a far superior input method than 1:1 character-wise entry. Given my condition, I didn't really have a choice. If keyboard entry works for you, great. If you have RSI or are developing it, learning steno is 1000% worth it. Prejudice against invisible disabilities exists. People dismiss them, judge you, and take advantage of your situation. Stenography is a way out of that. Also, see an occupational therapist (a professional who specializes in repetitive, work-related injuries). Good luck to anyone going through RSI. You're not alone and you will get through it.

Link to Plover to save you (potentially) painful typing: https://www.openstenoproject.org/

Re: Hands-Free Coding (2020)

#43

Post by rustyminnow »

spit2wind wrote: post #42

Developed RSI and overcame it through learning stenography with Plover. I've used it exclusively (only using the keyboard to login to the computer) for 2 years. I'm a full time developer and it works great. There's a learning curve for a few months before being able to switch to stenography completely. Practice was running drills with a metronome for 15 minutes or so a day, progressing to the next lesson after hittin…

I recently started learning Plover!

Did you have any trouble using it for coding? It feels largely geared towards natural langauge and seems like there could be challenges using it for code. Though I haven't practiced enough to try yet.

Re: Hands-Free Coding (2020)

#44

Post by gymbeaux »

rickydroll wrote: post #28
gymbeaux wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not beneficial to believe that you have "RSI". That's like saying you have "cancer" and are treating it with chemotherapy. What if you just had Thyroid Cancer, in which case you merely needed to take a special iodine pill. In other words, both cancer and "RSI" do not have a single treatment. RSI doesn't have to be this chronic, debilitating condition... but in my experience, you can't put too much faith in ortho…

I've been living with this problem since 1994. Some of the symptoms match up with cubital tunnel syndrome in that my hands feel split along the middle finger ring finger line. At the same time, the palms hands feel like they are burning, and my shoulders are caused me low-level discomfort. If I overdo it, the pain migrates up into my neck. sometimes my forearms and fingers swell. When the finger swelling happens, I l…

I don't want do downplay what you have been through and all the effort you have put in to trying to get an accurate diagnosis, and I know how discouraging navigating the US medical system is, but there have been a lot of advancements/changes in the area of orthopedic disorders since the 90s. If lidocaine in your shoulders is the only thing that has given you relief, you most likely have some form of Thoracic Outlet Syndrome. Lidocaine injections in shoulder muscles force those muscles to relax, releasing the brachial plexus (nerves) and thus relieving the symptoms of nerve impingement. Physical therapy is the primary treatment for TOS (e.g. building and stretching the muscles in the shoulder girdle), but surgery is an option as well. Ultimately they can just cut the ligament/muscle that is impinging on the nerve and viola, your symptoms are gone. In some cases, the nerves are impinged by something like an extra first rib that some people are born with. This too can be surgically removed. I encourage you to research TOS and come to your own conclusions since you know yourself better than I do, but that's what it sounds like to me.

Re: Hands-Free Coding (2020)

#45

Post by gymbeaux »

stronglikedan wrote: post #29
rickydroll wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been living with this problem since 1994. Some of the symptoms match up with cubital tunnel syndrome in that my hands feel split along the middle finger ring finger line. At the same time, the palms hands feel like they are burning, and my shoulders are caused me low-level discomfort. If I overdo it, the pain migrates up into my neck. sometimes my forearms and fingers swell. When the finger swelling happens, I l…

I went to a few MDs as well, for what presented like de quervain's tenosynovitis. It was only in my right hand, thankfully, so I could still mouse with my left. I also could use nothing but a split keyboard, which made it tough to use a laptop. And I could no longer use my phone with my right hand either. But after a while, I started getting symptoms in my left as well. Obviously, no where near as bad as your case, b…

My experience has been that orthopedic surgeons are BAD at diagnosis. This is at least partially because they are always in such a hurry (in the US anyway). You were smart to persist and I'm glad you found a solution. Your solution is essentially one that has not only helped me tremendously, but I think would help so many others too. So many who blindly trust what the docs tell them. I don't blame people for trusting in medical professionals, but I do blame them for believing what these docs tell them when it goes against what they believe (e.g. doc says hands are fine but they hurt constantly). At that point you MUST take responsibility for your diagnosis and treatment, and it sucks, and it's not ideal, but if I hadn't done it, I'd be unemployed and on disability by now.

Re: Hands-Free Coding (2020)

#46

Post by gymbeaux »

gymbeaux wrote: post #23
rickydroll wrote: post #20

As someone with RSI who writes code using speech recognition, before copilot, something like Talon was a pretty good solution. Awkward, kinda rough on the throat, not something you would use in the long term but better than the other options. I've always thought that a editor based on the abstract syntax tree in the language was a far better solution but that's a hard to solve problem and needs to be redone with ever…

It's not beneficial to believe that you have "RSI". That's like saying you have "cancer" and are treating it with chemotherapy. What if you just had Thyroid Cancer, in which case you merely needed to take a special iodine pill. In other words, both cancer and "RSI" do not have a single treatment. RSI doesn't have to be this chronic, debilitating condition... but in my experience, you can't put too much faith in ortho…

[flagged]

Re: Hands-Free Coding (2020)

#47

Post by gymbeaux »

woolion wrote: post #25
gymbeaux wrote: post #22

I'm not a doctor, but I'm skeptical that the author has/had Cubital Tunnel Syndrome. Similar to Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, it isn't a condition that significantly improves, much less resolves with rest. Both conditions warrant surgery to remove the nerve compression. I would guess that the author has relapsed by now, unless he made a lifestyle change not mentioned in the article (e.g. more ergonomic desktop, or started…

Even if you were a doctor, making a diagnosis upon reading a post is not good practice. It is easy to find subjects who did nothing else but the suspected activity develop RSI, so it is a weird claim to suspect it might not exist. For computers in particular, the "emacs pinky" is common knowledge, unless you'd think people suffer from collective hallucination (maybe a side-effect of emacs?). It is definitely a condit…

Eh, read up on Cubital Tunnel Syndrome... it's illogical to expect "ergonomics" to resolve a muscular impingement of the ulnar nerve.

"RSI" isn't a thing. It refers to an umbrella of conditions and therefore doesn't have a single "cure".

Re: Hands-Free Coding (2020)

#48

Post by gymbeaux »

corysama wrote: post #27
gymbeaux wrote: post #22

I'm not a doctor, but I'm skeptical that the author has/had Cubital Tunnel Syndrome. Similar to Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, it isn't a condition that significantly improves, much less resolves with rest. Both conditions warrant surgery to remove the nerve compression. I would guess that the author has relapsed by now, unless he made a lifestyle change not mentioned in the article (e.g. more ergonomic desktop, or started…

Well, I am anecdata in that I was diagnosed with cubital tunnel, recommended surgery and 99% cured it with extreme ergonomics. I was working on a large library with a verbose coding style and a clear plan. It was a year long sprint typing more than ever before. Started feeling pain down the side of my forearm and random needle stabs in my hand. Doc said I required surgery. Instead I took a many-pronged approach to er…

I would want to know in which fingers you were experiencing the tingling/numbness/pain. Unless it was only in your pinky and ring fingers, it wasn't Cubital Tunnel Syndrome (or rather, not JUST Cubital Tunnel Syndrome - it is possible, though uncommon, to have say Cubital Tunnel Syndrome and Carpal Tunnel Syndrome at the same time causing tingling and numbness in all five digits, however in such a case I would suspect nerve impingement in the shoulder or neck, before the ulnar and median nerves split from the brachial plexus).

Re: Hands-Free Coding (2020)

#49

Post by curioussavage »

rickydroll wrote: post #28
gymbeaux wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not beneficial to believe that you have "RSI". That's like saying you have "cancer" and are treating it with chemotherapy. What if you just had Thyroid Cancer, in which case you merely needed to take a special iodine pill. In other words, both cancer and "RSI" do not have a single treatment. RSI doesn't have to be this chronic, debilitating condition... but in my experience, you can't put too much faith in ortho…

I've been living with this problem since 1994. Some of the symptoms match up with cubital tunnel syndrome in that my hands feel split along the middle finger ring finger line. At the same time, the palms hands feel like they are burning, and my shoulders are caused me low-level discomfort. If I overdo it, the pain migrates up into my neck. sometimes my forearms and fingers swell. When the finger swelling happens, I l…

Have you tried float therapy? I did it twice a week for a while and it helped me a ton. Also talk Therapy and a lot of cardio seem to be key for me too. after years of inconsistent answers and shrugging from docs I was frustrated.

After reading about chronic pain and psychosomatic disorders I think it’s ridiculous how many providers don’t know much about that or are afraid to even mention it. Even after little talks discussing psychological causes of chronic pain with providers I experienced pain relief for days.

Re: Hands-Free Coding (2020)

#50

Post by gymbeaux »

jrgoff wrote: post #30
rickydroll wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been living with this problem since 1994. Some of the symptoms match up with cubital tunnel syndrome in that my hands feel split along the middle finger ring finger line. At the same time, the palms hands feel like they are burning, and my shoulders are caused me low-level discomfort. If I overdo it, the pain migrates up into my neck. sometimes my forearms and fingers swell. When the finger swelling happens, I l…

Not saying this is related to your issues at all, but in case it ends up being helpful for someone - my uncle was a postman and lived with RSI for decades, early on they even gave him carpal tunnel surgery for it which just made things worse. After that, I think he gave up on doctors to a large extent but as he got older and was having more health difficulties, his daughter "made" him go see the doctor about them. Tu…

Carpal Tunnel Release is the most-common hand surgery in the United States, and it's estimated to have a success rate of around 90%. I have always thought the remaining 10% or so were misdiagnoses. I was misdiagnosed with CTS myself. It was a misdiagnosis because the condition hasn't worsened despite my continued keyboard and mouse use, and the symptoms do not worsen when I bend my wrists (really the doc should have seen that and not diganosed me with CTS, it's a pretty reliable indicator).
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