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Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud (2021) [video]

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Re: Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud (2021) [video]

#271

Post by floatrock »

908B64B197 wrote: post #261
epolanski wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Say what you want about soviet city planning but it was damn efficient. I have never ever seen a soviet-era suburb which didn't have 4 to 12 story buildings with parks and aisles all around them and all kind of services being at a 5 minutes walking distance top (church, shops, post office, elementary and middle school, etc).[1] Literally under every building you would find people quietly enjoying their evening on the…

You can smell the ideology behind these developments from miles away. No cars of course (not that people didn't want them, the central planners simply weren't good enough to create an environment in which they could be manufactured). Cramped living conditions but ample communal space, so a lot of time is spent in full view of the neighbor (so they can report anti-communist behaviors to the local police). No individua…

> No individuality, identical buildings with the same layout for identical cogs in the machine.

And yet when the west does this, we celebrate it as "economies of scale": https://www.istockphoto.com/photos/subdivision-aerial

(well, as long as your tiny piece of lawn stays green, your house is one of the five approved paint colors, and your HOA dues/conformity-fines are paid)

Re: Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud (2021) [video]

#272

Post by kqr »

nordsieck wrote: post #148
kqr wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, but it's still weird. It's asking the outside people to shoulder the responsibility of avoiding the killer machine. I'd rather have quiet cars and much harsher crackdowns on drivers that use them in ways that jeopardy the lives of others. There are many things drivers can do to reduce the hazard, such as slowing down, buying smaller vehicles, using cars that don't isolate outside noise, only driving whe…

> I'd rather have quiet cars and much harsher crackdowns on drivers that use them in ways that jeopardy the lives of others. There are many things drivers can do to reduce the hazard, such as slowing down, buying smaller vehicles, using cars that don't isolate outside noise, only driving when in good mental condition, etc. I get what you're saying, but IMO, that just wouldn't work well. If you want a better system, i…

> If you want a better system, it's better to make as many changes as possible to the system so that problems are impossible and/or unlikely.

I disagree with this premise.

If you want to make a system better, you need to enable as many information flows as possible, shorten feedback loops, etc. The classic Meadows leverage points. The proposal of making cars noisy has the opposite effect, by sweeping problems under the rug.

Just "doing as many things as possible" is a great way to paint oneself into a local optimum.

Re: Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud (2021) [video]

#273

Post by mcv »

STM32F030R8 wrote: post #197
mcv wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And when roads are noisy, they get noise screens to contain it. While Dutch highways tend to have speed limits of 100-130 kph, the A-10 ring highway around Amsterdam has one section that's limited to 80 kph because it passed through a densely populated area of the city. There's big apartment blocks right next to the highway (and one offramp passes straight through a building), so traffic has to go slower to keep nois…

We often put up noise barriers around highways in the US. I’m not sure what you’re talking about.

That sounds like what I was talking about. If the US does have them, that's great. But a lot of videos of the US that I've seen showed big roads through residential areas with no noise barriers around them. And with people here complaining about the noise, it's clearly not being used enough in all parts of the US.

Although of course noise barriers are just one of many tools. Less cars and having cars drive more slowly probably accomplish a lot more.

Re: Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud (2021) [video]

#274

Post by NovemberWhiskey »

wan23 wrote: post #236
chrisldgk wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’re focusing on the wrong issue here. Engine noise nowadays is a lot less of a problem than tire noise, especially with cars going 50km/h+. Some cars are loud because people want them to be, most cars are loud because the noise the tires make when driving is loud, and that only gets worse the more cars you have around.

I live next to a large road in NYC and for me the cars that are loud intentionally are by far the biggest problem when it comes to noise, followed by sirens and horns. The things that are designed to be noticed are the most noticeable.

I also live in NYC: typical vehicle traffic is background white-noise. I absolutely agree that the major disruptive noise sources from cars are sirens, horns, alarms and obviously-illegal exhaust modifications.

Re: Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud (2021) [video]

#275

Post by gtyras2mrs »

darkteflon wrote: post #207
sokoloff wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re saying other cities’ air quality experience is totally irrelevant in some posts and then making a direct comparison to policies that other cities have implemented in this post. It doesn’t seem a consistent position to me. IMO, what other cities do (and the results they get) is relevant when discussing what’s good, bad, or practically possible.

I said Tokyo has shit air. Then came a chorus of whataboutists saying it wasn’t as bad as London, NYC, Bangalore. I said that’s irrelevant: dirty air is dirty air. You said I was asking the impossible, I said what about policies that actively target tailpipe emissions? To improve air quality here, in Tokyo. The city in which I have lived for most of my adult life. Where’s the inconsistency?

You claim that "I said Tokyo has shit air" while ignoring the parent comment you responded to.

The comment you responded to was about how this low noise experience is not unique to Europe, and saying Japan has similar experiences.

You came in with "Tokyo has shit air" as a response. Now you claim the others are "whataboutists" when they are merely continuing the original conversation topic comparing Europe with Japan.

Re: Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud (2021) [video]

#276

Post by gtyras2mrs »

darkteflon wrote: post #247
david-gpu wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a post discussing car noise pollution in North America you have spent hours and dozen of comments whinging about how terrible air pollution is in Tokyo and dismissing anybody presenting you with data. Do you have anything to contribute to the topic?

Hey man, I was responding to a comment that brought up Tokyo. I could talk about Tokyo air quality all day, yeah. Because I live with it. If you don’t want to talk about that, just stop talking about it maybe?

Your responded to a comment that brought up Japan *in comparision with Europe.*

Re: Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud (2021) [video]

#277

Post by pzone »

asah wrote: post #119

haha, NYC has entered the chat. Cars aren't loud, car SPEAKERS are loud. The subway. Ambulances. Construction. Garbage truck compactors. Guys trying to get you into their restaurants. Panhandlers. Buskers. Customers haggling with street vendors. Hassidim on cellphones negotiating deals. Mothers on cellphones giving relationship advice. Laughing teenagers. Drunken couples having fights. Cops chit chatting with each ot…

The worst part is that horns and sirens often little practical use. Even in an emergency situation like a heart attack, an extra minute or two rarely improves patient outcomes. Essentially, these noises are put on for show.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/19/us/sirens-noise-ambulance...

Re: Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud (2021) [video]

#278

Post by pzone »

aerojoe23 wrote: post #180
jenadine wrote: post #18

I live near an intersection, and the most annoying noise is honking. Why do driver have to honk so much is beyond me. Also quite annoying is ambulance/police. They are really loud.

Fire/ambulance/police are supposed to be exceptionally loud so they can get drivers attention and then they can get through. (I expect you know this already, but I'm making sure we're all on the same page.) Over time cabins in vehicles have gotten more isolated with better sound systems. Outside has gotten generally louder. Both of these things mean the emergency sirens need to be even louder for it to get a drivers…

The problem is that horns and sirens typically provide little practical benefit. Even in an emergency situation like a heart attack, arriving an extra minute or two faster rarely improves patient outcomes. Essentially, these noises are put on for show.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/19/us/sirens-noise-ambulance...

Re: Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud (2021) [video]

#279

Post by rektide »

chrisldgk wrote: post #115
michaelteter wrote: post #84

There are two issues here. One is that we need to come up with comprehensive solutions for reducing the number of vehicles in use. But that’s a difficult problem where solutions take decades and must be tailored to each scenario. But what can be addressed now is the engine and exhaust sound levels. Some vehicles are loud because their engines are working hard, but many vehicles are loud because people (boys) want the…

I think you’re focusing on the wrong issue here. Engine noise nowadays is a lot less of a problem than tire noise, especially with cars going 50km/h+. Some cars are loud because people want them to be, most cars are loud because the noise the tires make when driving is loud, and that only gets worse the more cars you have around.

There are zero cars making disruptive tire nosie at 2:00am in my neighborhood.

Actually, wait, there is one asshole on a scooter who locks his wheels & creates incredible shrieking horror "omg an accident is happening" sounds at every intersection he stops at. But that too is not regular tire noise, it's another boy child antisocial asshole.

There's different situations. Sometimes yes tire noise is an issue. The video has one of my favorite bits, 'why did this not take off? Because car makers are assholes' or some such. The aggregate noise can be a problem. But I think the video is spot on. Car drivers don't have any conception of how fucking obnoxious to hundreds of people it is that they blow their horn. They love shitty preening pathetic loud cars. It's only like 10% of them, but those 10% of car drivers are anti social assholes with enormous ability to make life much worse for everyone. And most societies have almost no restraints, no ability to create counter pressures against the anti-social.

Re: Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud (2021) [video]

#280

Post by caskstrength »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #241
epolanski wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Say what you want about soviet city planning but it was damn efficient. I have never ever seen a soviet-era suburb which didn't have 4 to 12 story buildings with parks and aisles all around them and all kind of services being at a 5 minutes walking distance top (church, shops, post office, elementary and middle school, etc).[1] Literally under every building you would find people quietly enjoying their evening on the…

This is something I heard a lot from people from the former GDR. Usually, they start by acknowledging the bad things: the limited opportunity to travel, the surveillance. But then, they tell you about what they miss. Knowing their neighbours, a certain idea of fraternity and togetherness in hardship, the feeling that even as a poor kid you could achieve something and be useful to society as a whole, the absence of re…

So, like western european countries near GDR (which is in Europe so no point in comparing it with US), but with surveillance and inability to travel?
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