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Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud (2021) [video]

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Re: Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud (2021) [video]

#201

Post by Symbiote »

prottog wrote: post #192
epolanski wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Say what you want about soviet city planning but it was damn efficient. I have never ever seen a soviet-era suburb which didn't have 4 to 12 story buildings with parks and aisles all around them and all kind of services being at a 5 minutes walking distance top (church, shops, post office, elementary and middle school, etc).[1] Literally under every building you would find people quietly enjoying their evening on the…

Economical progress is certainly no guarantee of happiness, and hardships do often foster a sense of camaraderie that brings people closer together. Soldiers who have been in combat, for example, find that they miss the foxhole, even though getting shot at is no one's idea of a happy time. > People don't really enjoy their evenings chatting to each other because benches have been removed and kid playgrounds have been…

It's OK for some things genuinely to have been better for some people in some of the planned economies.

City planning looks to be better for children and perhaps average families for the reasons given. Similar projects were also built in the west, e.g. in the UK, but since they were only for poor people they suffered from inadequate maintenance, security and so on. Those either get demolished, or the green space filled in with more buildings.

> Something else must have changed.

Cars, that was the point. A one-lane access road was originally enough for deliveries, maintenance and waste removal; it would later be widened, then cars parked (legally or not) along the sides of the road or sidewalks. No one wants to sit on a bench and stare at a parked car, and the cars (parked and moving) make it more dangerous for children to play unsupervised.

Re: Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud (2021) [video]

#203

Post by johnwalkr »

darkteflon wrote: post #44
david-gpu wrote: post #17

I live in a high-rise condo next to a six-lane stroad that was even showcased on this YouTube channel and the 24/7 traffic noise is annoying, particularly when you want to go for a walk and can't even hold a conversation. This didn't happen in the places where I lived back in Europe because zoning laws were different. Instead of the sprawl of freehold single family homes separate from a dense urban core, these much q…

I see this take about Japan all the time and do not understand it. No offence, but have you spent any time in Japan? Rural areas might be quiet for sheer low population density, but the cities are disgusting. PM2.5 levels in Tokyo yesterday were like 6x WHO limits and absolutely no one on the local news was talking about it. Every morning I see pregnant and new mothers with infants or small children squeezing between…

This is a hilariously misleading take. Are you comparing Tokyo to a place with stroads or to living on a farm? I lived in Tokyo for 6 years. Yeah there’s a lot of traffic in Tokyo but the highways are underground or elevated and it’s a pedestrian paradise At least that mother and children can walk to interesting things instead of drive everywhere. And in the neighborhood they live in, there are likely quiet streets and a grocery store within blocks.

Even where there are large roads, like near Shibuya station, there’s no street parking and cars are passing through, not driving across the sidewalk to every storefront. Pedestrians definitely come first. The parkades are often attended to direct traffic and pedestrians.

I can’t comment on yesterday but PM2.5 levels are often on the news.

Construction sites? Yeah, it’s a city. But most construction is fast. I now live in a small But growing European city and part of the sidewalk downtown has been closed down for three years for ongoing demolition of a building. Now it looks like construction is just starting. And this is for a 5 or 6 stores building.

Smoking areas outside of stations are gross in Japan but it’s rude or forbidden to smoke in crowded areas. In Europe people smoke on the train platform, at the bus stop and right outside of every restaurant.

I did think of one thing that is loud and annoying in Tokyo though: 50cc scooters. Making those quiet ought to be low hanging fruit.

Re: Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud (2021) [video]

#204

Post by DrBazza »

po wrote: post #102
darkteflon wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this take about Japan all the time and do not understand it. No offence, but have you spent any time in Japan? Rural areas might be quiet for sheer low population density, but the cities are disgusting. PM2.5 levels in Tokyo yesterday were like 6x WHO limits and absolutely no one on the local news was talking about it. Every morning I see pregnant and new mothers with infants or small children squeezing between…

I just walked out onto my 3rd floor balcony in Tokyo at 8:30pm and my watch says it is 38dB. I can hear some light car traffic in the distance. I live about a 20 minute walk to Shibuya crossing, so not exactly rural. I also live about 100m from Yamatedori which is a giant arterial road. I used to live in NYC. Tokyo is a very quiet city. Not all parts for sure... you can have an apartment by a train crossing or they m…

Are there trees and soft planting at street level? NYC is very plant bare by comparison to London for example. And they absorb a lot of the noise. Hard surfaces just reflect and amplify the noise.

Re: Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud (2021) [video]

#205

Post by Symbiote »

ericmay wrote: post #161
robertlagrant wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This means people can live within walking distance to where they work and where they shop This is less common than you think. There are 8500 or so malls in Europe[0]. I happen to live near an (expensive) shop, which I use because I like walking places, but I also know I have a tech salary that lets me buy a place that's in walking distance of a shop, and afford to shop in it regularly. Also, plenty of people don't…

Maybe I missed it but does that article say what the mean square footage of these malls are or where they are placed? In America we only have mega malls with giant square footage and the only way to get to them is by driving. When I have been in Europe I’ve noticed very little in the way of American style malls within any city (let’s take Amsterdam as an example). I do find “malls” that might just be a few offices wi…

Taking Copenhagen, there are two large shopping centres of 115,000m² and 58,000m², plus several more of around 15,000-30,000m². The smaller ones are generally a large (for Europe) supermarket in the basement, then other shops and restaurants on the ground and upper floors.

The two larger ones have commuter rail, metro, bus and cycle access, and parking for cars.

I'm sure the others have some parking, but it's not obvious as I've never used a car to visit one.

But, this city is the 'perfect' one, and there is a lot of range in-between. There are certainly large shopping malls in Europe with only road access, though they are almost certain to have bus services. Bluewater Shopping Centre just outside London is the first example that comes to mind.

Re: Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud (2021) [video]

#206

Post by fnordpiglet »

david-gpu wrote: post #17

I live in a high-rise condo next to a six-lane stroad that was even showcased on this YouTube channel and the 24/7 traffic noise is annoying, particularly when you want to go for a walk and can't even hold a conversation. This didn't happen in the places where I lived back in Europe because zoning laws were different. Instead of the sprawl of freehold single family homes separate from a dense urban core, these much q…

What this tells me is that the internal combustion engine is a bad idea everywhere but especially in a dense urban core.

People like both the dense urban core and the suburb single family home life style. They are very different modes of life. A lot of Europeans I know really like one or the other because they don’t really get them back home.

The solution to road noise doesn’t have to be a dramatic rezoning and a reversion to Europe everywhere. It could be to make cars and trucks quieter.

(N.b., I’m specifically not addressing SFH and housing shortages in this, hopefully that’s for a different thread)

Re: Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud (2021) [video]

#207

Post by darkteflon »

sokoloff wrote: post #168
darkteflon wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s impossible about it? Where are the bans on diesel trucks in the city centre? Where are the zero emissions vehicles visible in just about every other metropolis? Where are the congestion charges? Bike lanes? Tree cover? This is a political problem and as long as the Japanese auto lobby has the LDP in their pocket, we who live here live the consequences.

You’re saying other cities’ air quality experience is totally irrelevant in some posts and then making a direct comparison to policies that other cities have implemented in this post. It doesn’t seem a consistent position to me. IMO, what other cities do (and the results they get) is relevant when discussing what’s good, bad, or practically possible.

I said Tokyo has shit air. Then came a chorus of whataboutists saying it wasn’t as bad as London, NYC, Bangalore. I said that’s irrelevant: dirty air is dirty air. You said I was asking the impossible, I said what about policies that actively target tailpipe emissions? To improve air quality here, in Tokyo. The city in which I have lived for most of my adult life.

Where’s the inconsistency?

Re: Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud (2021) [video]

#208

Post by _yb2s »

Simulacra wrote: post #149

This is the second reason why I am in favor of electric vehicles. The first being that pollution creation will happen somewhere else instead of inside the community where I live.

Modern combustion cars have virtually no engine noise... most of the noise comes from the tires on both combustion and electric cars.

Re: Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud (2021) [video]

#209

Post by typest »

fnordpiglet wrote: post #206
david-gpu wrote: post #17

I live in a high-rise condo next to a six-lane stroad that was even showcased on this YouTube channel and the 24/7 traffic noise is annoying, particularly when you want to go for a walk and can't even hold a conversation. This didn't happen in the places where I lived back in Europe because zoning laws were different. Instead of the sprawl of freehold single family homes separate from a dense urban core, these much q…

What this tells me is that the internal combustion engine is a bad idea everywhere but especially in a dense urban core. People like both the dense urban core and the suburb single family home life style. They are very different modes of life. A lot of Europeans I know really like one or the other because they don’t really get them back home. The solution to road noise doesn’t have to be a dramatic rezoning and a rev…

A city on its own generally has the power to change zoning and land use laws. There are limitations (some states give cities more or less power here) but generally cities do have the ability to make changes that would reduce noise and improve quality of life for their residents.

On the other hand, cities do not have the ability to redesign cars. A city can’t just choose to invent a quieter car!

I would love it if we can engineer cars and trucks to be quieter; I think though that a more feasible path for any city is to work on zoning and land use changes.

Re: Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud (2021) [video]

#210

Post by forinti »

My experience in Brazil and Uruguay is that since the 80s, cars have become much much quieter and also people don't honk as much.

In Uruguay, especially, the bus fleet was awful in the 80s and 90s. They were very old, made a lot of noise, and polluted like hell. There are many electric buses nowadays and the old Leylands are gone.

You don't see electric buses in Brazil and most of the noise comes from diesel buses and the small ones are the worst (I think this is regulatory failure, not a technical issue).

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