The Staff Engineer's Path – Book Review • Hacker News Board

Re: The Staff Engineer's Path – Book Review

#211

Post by tacitusarc » Thu, May 18, 2023, 4:36 AM UTC

a_bonobo wrote: post #199

biscuits1 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stamina isn't the word I would go for. It would be commitment. For those that have loads of stamina, it's the commitment to continuous creative encounters that leads to the perceived magic. From "Courage to Create" by Rollo May: "It is said that the novelist Thomas Wolfe, who was one of the highly creative figures of the American scene, that he was a "genius without talent." But he was so creative because he threw hi…

Commitment from the individual, and commitment from your organisation! I work in a relatively 'flat hierarchy' so there are few organisational structures and proceedings that keep projects on track. It's only me that keeps the marble on the track, there are no organisational tracks. Once I lose interest or stamina the marble is gone. Other organisations with regular check-ins, project tracking etc. have a system that…

Maybe, maybe not. At the end of the day it takes people interested and motivated to head in the right direction.

Re: The Staff Engineer's Path – Book Review

#212

Post by [deleted] » Thu, May 18, 2023, 4:41 AM UTC

theptip wrote: post #187

ergocoder wrote: post #61

This cult of staff engineers really need to go away. People read it and all of them like to act like a staff engineer when in fact there are only available slots for a fraction of the engineers. Now nobody wants to fix bugs and improve product quality. Why? Because those tasks are not staff-level work. The reward system and the definition doesn't work.

I strongly disagree. “Staff engineer” as a construct should be understood as an alternative to the previous dominant paradigm, which held that manager track is the only progression track beyond some point (usually Senior or a “Senior II” level). This toxic concept was pretty commonplace through 2010, particularly outside Silicon Valley. Any system can be done wrong. But this system is, I believe, objectively better t…

[deleted]

Re: The Staff Engineer's Path – Book Review

#213

Post by facet1ous » Thu, May 18, 2023, 4:42 AM UTC

Xeoncross wrote: post #15

Where do all the hardcore engineering jobs live? I've been bothered by the fact that most advanced engineering roles like "staff" actually mean "manager who does system design as well" Where are the docker/redis/next.js/linux kernel/qt/roller-coaster tycoon creators? Where are the people creating amazing software and do they get a special "advanced developer" title? I guess, I'm curious if there are actual roles in c…

There are a few "hardcore" staff/prinicpal engineers at my company (a well known tech unicorn). They are basically OGs who were a big part of the company's early success. Really smart and saavy guys who are left alone to focus on executing on big stuff.

The reality for other staff engineers here is exactly opposite though - you're not allowed to just be "executing" and your day consists of being stuck in meetings, doc writing, and management-lite. Honestly it's so bureaucratic and so far removed from the actual tech I really got turned off from that career path as I got more visibility into it.

For smaller companies it's probably much more fulfilling though.

Re: The Staff Engineer's Path – Book Review

#214

Post by rmk » Thu, May 18, 2023, 5:02 AM UTC

jameshart wrote: post #177

rmk wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There aren't too many hardcore engineering jobs. They are being done in startups where hard problems are being solved, and even there the average startup is just a website which is acting as a broker in a two-sided marketplace, or some variant thereof. If you step back and think about it, it makes sense. The majority of companies are one-trick ponies, maybe following up with a few additional products. Incremental dev…

Why do so many people in the tech industry have so little respect for their peers who work elsewhere in the industry? The idea that large companies aren't solving hard problems, that that's only being done at startups, and that large companies are 'one trick ponies' is just incredibly myopic. Have you worked at a large publicly traded tech company? Sure, in any business a bunch of the systems will be trivial. In larg…

My point stands, particularly w.r.t. individual software engineers. Do you think any of the companies you mentioned had one, or even two/three engineers build the complicated marvels you are talking about? Do you think they would incur the risk of that as public companies? I am willing to bet the answer is 'no', particularly in this day and age.

The point of the original question isn't whether products as a whole are complex and hard, it's whether an individual engineer will get to do fairly large, complex systems.

Re: The Staff Engineer's Path – Book Review

#215

Post by jameshart » Thu, May 18, 2023, 5:05 AM UTC

rmk wrote: post #214

jameshart wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do so many people in the tech industry have so little respect for their peers who work elsewhere in the industry? The idea that large companies aren't solving hard problems, that that's only being done at startups, and that large companies are 'one trick ponies' is just incredibly myopic. Have you worked at a large publicly traded tech company? Sure, in any business a bunch of the systems will be trivial. In larg…

My point stands, particularly w.r.t. individual software engineers. Do you think any of the companies you mentioned had one, or even two/three engineers build the complicated marvels you are talking about? Do you think they would incur the risk of that as public companies? I am willing to bet the answer is 'no', particularly in this day and age. The point of the original question isn't whether products as a whole are…

On their own? No. Of course not.

Re: The Staff Engineer's Path – Book Review

#216

Post by sibeliuss » Thu, May 18, 2023, 5:14 AM UTC

tltimeline2 wrote: post #140

sibeliuss wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the answer. There's certainly ridiculous talent (especially with ideas), but in my experience it always comes down to stamina stretched through time. Cool things get built by people that stick it out, and recruit others to do the same. And also know _exactly_ when to exit to pursue something new (but that's a different subject).

Interesting, is the ability to know when to exit a prerequisite? I would think there's a distribution between those you spoke of and some that just picked one thing and went forever.

Well what I mean is there's an ability to see precisely when just enough is done -- no more, no less -- before one can hand things over and exit with sanity and / or dignity. It goes hand in hand. Many work very hard and quit before _the_ critical thing is done, which in a sense forfeits all prior work; others continue working and working and burn out. The best understand something about timing, almost in an intuitive sense. I've seen it again and again, and it's impressive.

Re: The Staff Engineer's Path – Book Review

#217

Post by joshuamorton » Thu, May 18, 2023, 7:23 AM UTC

deprecative wrote: post #185

rokob wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Typically the direct reporting relationship is about managing someone’s career and not necessarily their work. The leadership described here is more about the work to be done rather than the person’s fulfillment and suitability with that work. This separation is more pronounced with large (1000+) engineering organizations. Often people don’t experience this difference because it doesn’t exist at the smaller scales. E…

When you say "about managing someone's career" I can't help but feel you actually mean "someone's job". No manager is paid to care about an employee's career that I have ever seen or heard of.

Ehh, I am employed at a company where, despite things being very tense at the moment, I've felt very comfortable expressing to my manager my intent to transfer out of the team I'm currently on and into a different position, as I'm not happy with things as they are.

My manager, skip, and director have all been extremely supportive of this throughout the process, despite it taking a somewhat lengthy period of time and putting me (a senior-almost staff eng on the team) in a position where it's very difficult for me to commit to a significant ownership of big strategic things (which is my job) since I might transfer out at any moment.

Similarly, a few years back, I expressed intent to transfer away from my team to my manager. He basically said "stick around an extra quarter since you're on the cusp of promotion and it'll be easier this way" (and he was correct, my promotion would have been delayed if I transferred first), and I did and got promoted, and ended up staying longer, for various reasons.

Additionally, my managers have all been receptive to my goals in terms of career growth: do I want to lean into management (no!) or into deep technical expertise? Do I want to go for additional promotions, or am I happy to stay in the role I'm in and continue doing the same kind of work?

All of this, to me, reads more like career management than job management.

Re: The Staff Engineer's Path – Book Review

#218

Post by comprev » Thu, May 18, 2023, 8:02 AM UTC

timacles wrote: post #94

onion2k wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are the docker/redis/next.js/linux kernel/qt/roller-coaster tycoon creators? Something I learned relatively late in my career was that really impressive work is the result of iterations in tiny steps. When you see something that makes you go "WOW! I could never do that!" you're seeing the final result of a long journey, and you probably could have taken each small step with a bit of effort. There's no need for…

The thing that separates those guys from everyone else is simple. Its stamina. No there isn't some higher level of understanding or deep perception. Every one of the all time great programmers had 1 exact thing in common with no exceptions. Stamina. You will not find a single outlier. They did their craft every day, for many hours, year after year. So sure, any of us could have taken the individual small steps. But w…

Maybe tenacity instead of stamina?

Re: The Staff Engineer's Path – Book Review

#219

Post by lloeki » Thu, May 18, 2023, 8:59 AM UTC

er4hn wrote: post #122

biscuits1 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stamina isn't the word I would go for. It would be commitment. For those that have loads of stamina, it's the commitment to continuous creative encounters that leads to the perceived magic. From "Courage to Create" by Rollo May: "It is said that the novelist Thomas Wolfe, who was one of the highly creative figures of the American scene, that he was a "genius without talent." But he was so creative because he threw hi…

“Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan "press on" has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race” - Calvin Coolidge

> The separation of talent and skill is one of the greatest misunderstood concepts for people who are trying to excel, who have dreams, who want to do things. Talent you have naturally. Skill is only developed by hours and hours and hours of beating on your craft.

- Will Smith

My take is that talent is a potential, without practice it is left unrealised and never turns into skill, nor success.

Then people look at success and say "well person P has natural talent, I don't, so I can't do that", which is very sad, because ultimately it's mostly about a shit ton of work, and dedication, and commitment, and persistence.

Re: The Staff Engineer's Path – Book Review

#220

Post by nazka » Thu, May 18, 2023, 9:00 AM UTC

cjsplat wrote: post #151

er4hn wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan "press on" has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race” - Calvin Coolidge

And with Coolidge's great persistence, he helped build the foundation for the Great Depression. It is possible to "press on" in the wrong direction.

After a good time of reflection, questioning mentors etc… Maybe it’s better to press on (in the wrong direction) and learn from it than do nothing and contemplate what we could do or achieve or debate for hours/weeks/months to know if it’s the right decision.