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Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

med.stanford.edu

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Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#131

Post by bendbro »

EGreg wrote: post #124
bendbro wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, I wonder if depression is not always rooted in some random, mental problem but rather a reasonable reaction to reality.

I kept saying this for years on HN but until the 2022 study it was always voted down and told that NO, it is due to a chemical imbalance and that we don’t understand

I recall that study!

I suspect those downvotes are due to people recognizing that it implies depression is sometimes within the control of someone afflicted by it and conflating that with blaming the person afflicted by it. People seem offended by critiques of modern ideas that rationalize away an individual's control, agency, and especially culpability for their behavior or outcomes. Sometimes these rationalizations are fair, other times not.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#132

Post by asdfman123 »

hirvi74 wrote: post #121
asdfman123 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does your ADHD make you feel antsy, like you need to get up and move around?

Absolutely. It's part of the reason why office work is so difficult and working from home is not. Sitting in a office is quite tiring since I have to use a lot of energy to restrain myself. I'm the type of person who paces when thinking/talking on the phone, talks with their hands, bounces my leg when sitting, fiddling with something in my hands when talking, etc.. The best description I can give is it feels almost l…

Learning to get into the exercise habit is a night and day change for me.

In fact, my body now demands that I go to the gym every day of the week, either for weights, cardio, or both. On my one rest day, I feel riddled by anxiety at 6 pm because I'm not doing any real physical activity. (Now that I write this, maybe I should walk on my rest day, but oh well.)

It's hard work to form the habit, but it's the best treatment for this sort of thing that I've found. Once you start associating exercise = relief, it becomes welcome.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#133

Post by endisneigh »

mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: post #125
endisneigh wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point I was trying to make isn’t about happiness or sadness per se, rather they depression has mental analogs that presumably are improved after treatment.

I think the more accurate way to conceptualise this is that treatment works by interfering with processes in the brain that cause depression, not that it cancels out the depression by adding enough euphoria/mania/happyness to compensate. Antidepressants don't typically cause mania in healthy people, but they could paradoxically cause depression.

I was referring more to the article in the OP that “reverses bad signals”.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#134

Post by kyleyeats »

marcellus23 wrote: post #71
kyleyeats wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weed is chemically addictive. Your endocannabinoid system is downregulated for weeks after heavy use. You get withdrawal symptoms which are alleviated by use. I've never seen the phrase "chemically addictive" used by someone who knew what they were talking about. It's only used by people who don't understand that neurotransmitters are chemicals too. Stop spreading this BS distinction.

I agree with you. I should have put "chemically addictive" in scare-quotes to make it clear that I think the distinction is silly.

My bad and no offense. I'm a reader darkly. Italics/asterisks are also good.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#135

Post by antod »

flippinburgers wrote: post #118

I have had what seems to me to be depression for most of my life (40+ years). I have been fortunate enough to have a kid and, now, I guess I just don't have time to be depressed or something because most of my thoughts of ending life etc have, quite thankfully, gone away. I'm really not trying to be off-putting when I say this but I do sometimes wonder if some instances of depression aren't simply a cause of people n…

A counterpoint: Speaking for myself who had also been mildly depressed since teenage years, it didn't kick off into actual breakdowns and medication until after having kids. Previously it was probably so mild it wouldn't have counted as depression.

All behind me now that they've mostly grown up.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#136

Post by pessimizer »

bendbro wrote: post #131
EGreg wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kept saying this for years on HN but until the 2022 study it was always voted down and told that NO, it is due to a chemical imbalance and that we don’t understand

I recall that study! I suspect those downvotes are due to people recognizing that it implies depression is sometimes within the control of someone afflicted by it and conflating that with blaming the person afflicted by it. People seem offended by critiques of modern ideas that rationalize away an individual's control, agency, and especially culpability for their behavior or outcomes. Sometimes these rationalizations…

I think that it's simpler: people have long been encouraged to believe that certain medical procedures and practices that lack great evidence are responsible for saving their lives, and that anyone who critiques those procedures in any way is trying to kill them. People who are paid (as often as not by government) to provide those procedures and practices encourage these beliefs, and spend massive amounts of money in lobbying through patients' rights groups and other channels to support and encourage people in that fear and anger.

People who are sick either continue to be sick, get well, or die. No matter what diagnosis or treatment you give to someone, they either get better, don't get better, or are removed from the conversation. We never hear from the dead again, the people who get better insist that you saved their lives, and the people who don't get better will be attacked by the people who did for not believing or trusting you enough.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#137

Post by pessimizer »

bendbro wrote: post #123
flippinburgers wrote: post #118

I have had what seems to me to be depression for most of my life (40+ years). I have been fortunate enough to have a kid and, now, I guess I just don't have time to be depressed or something because most of my thoughts of ending life etc have, quite thankfully, gone away. I'm really not trying to be off-putting when I say this but I do sometimes wonder if some instances of depression aren't simply a cause of people n…

I agree, I wonder if depression is not always rooted in some random, mental problem but rather a reasonable reaction to reality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depressive_realism

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#138

Post by pessimizer »

eastof wrote: post #130
throitallaway wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I find most troubling is how resources and power get concentrated in hands of the few, and the rest of us (99%+ of the population) are left to deal with the consequences. The few laws that do exist to prevent benefiting parties from raping and pillaging the earth and society at large are slaps on the wrist at best. The default is to toe the line and/or overstep legality and morality. That's what's so depressing…

I commented about this above since this type of thinking is what I see most commonly in my anxious/depressed friends. Really think on it deeply for a bit and you'll realize this belief can't possibly be justified rationally. Who are you to say that resources and power shouldn't be concentrated in the 1%? You say they overstep morality? That's your morality and you can't defend it rationally (no one can). Plus you can…

> Who are you to say that resources and power shouldn't be concentrated in the 1%?

Who are you? Everybody has the right to say this, or the opposite. If you think that people need some sort of permission to critique the morality of murderers, or that there are no rational arguments for any sort of morality, I'm here to inform you that neither you or they need permission, and maybe read or think a little more about secular morality. Feel free, however, to continue giving your opinion without my permission.

> Plus you can't change these things anyway

This isn't rationality, it's just learned helplessness. To say the least, people have changed things before, and will change them again. You have changed things, even if they were very small.

> Try optimism.

This comment is 100% doomer. Maybe try some optimism yourself.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#139

Post by malauxyeux »

flippinburgers wrote: post #118

I have had what seems to me to be depression for most of my life (40+ years). I have been fortunate enough to have a kid and, now, I guess I just don't have time to be depressed or something because most of my thoughts of ending life etc have, quite thankfully, gone away. I'm really not trying to be off-putting when I say this but I do sometimes wonder if some instances of depression aren't simply a cause of people n…

Maybe not even having kids, but being engaged in something fully.

From neuroscience, there's the default mode network.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Default_mode_network

> It is best known for being active when a person is not focused on the outside world and the brain is at wakeful rest, such as during daydreaming and mind-wandering.

Apparently, activation of the DMN is correlated to rumination, itself correlated to depression.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31655111/

Interestingly, one thing often suggested to counter depression these days – meditation – generally says right on the tin that you're supposed to get into a wakeful rest state, but specifically try to avoid daydreaming and mind-wandering.

(I should say that I'm no expert. Just passing along things that I've heard/read.)

Edit: formatting

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#140

Post by blauditore »

malauxyeux wrote: post #139
flippinburgers wrote: post #118

I have had what seems to me to be depression for most of my life (40+ years). I have been fortunate enough to have a kid and, now, I guess I just don't have time to be depressed or something because most of my thoughts of ending life etc have, quite thankfully, gone away. I'm really not trying to be off-putting when I say this but I do sometimes wonder if some instances of depression aren't simply a cause of people n…

Maybe not even having kids, but being engaged in something fully. From neuroscience, there's the default mode network. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Default_mode_network > It is best known for being active when a person is not focused on the outside world and the brain is at wakeful rest, such as during daydreaming and mind-wandering. Apparently, activation of the DMN is correlated to rumination, itself correlated to…

Might also be the additional social interaction (the kid is a human, even if a small one). I think many people felt this during the pandemic and its lockdowns.
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