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The Staff Engineer's Path – Book Review

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Re: The Staff Engineer's Path – Book Review

#111

Post by personjerry »

Xeoncross wrote: post #15

Where do all the hardcore engineering jobs live? I've been bothered by the fact that most advanced engineering roles like "staff" actually mean "manager who does system design as well" Where are the docker/redis/next.js/linux kernel/qt/roller-coaster tycoon creators? Where are the people creating amazing software and do they get a special "advanced developer" title? I guess, I'm curious if there are actual roles in c…

At big companies there are high level IC roles, supposedly "mirroring" the manager levels, for people who are the "creators" and effect change in tech on a large scale without people management. For example I remember at Facebook I attended a "class" on keyboard shortcuts, taught by one of the creators of a *nix utility (I forget which)

Re: The Staff Engineer's Path – Book Review

#112

Post by coliveira »

trgn wrote: post #107
coliveira wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where do all the hardcore engineering jobs live There is NO such thing as hardcore engineer job position that doesn't involve a lot of management. All the good engineers that get jobs are the ones who do management work as well as coding. If you cannot do this, the industry will just close its doors for you.

> There is NO such thing as hardcore engineer job position that doesn't involve a lot of management So bizar. I've been in a few companies with senior "hardcore" engineers heads down in code, without management responsibilities. > If you cannot do this, the industry will just close its doors for you. Wait what? A good engineering company will strive for a mix of seniority within teams of ICs. Some of these seniors ma…

It only changes the kind of management responsibilities you're talking about. Yes, some positions will have zero employee management, however you'll be responsible for product management. There is no product in a big company that can be created with zero collaboration, so you'll be responsible for managing collaboration with other groups, determining features and getting ok from management, making sure that others are doing their work, etc. It is management nonetheless, sometimes with lots of meetings, just with a different goal.

Re: The Staff Engineer's Path – Book Review

#113

Post by throwway120385 »

trgn wrote: post #107
coliveira wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where do all the hardcore engineering jobs live There is NO such thing as hardcore engineer job position that doesn't involve a lot of management. All the good engineers that get jobs are the ones who do management work as well as coding. If you cannot do this, the industry will just close its doors for you.

> There is NO such thing as hardcore engineer job position that doesn't involve a lot of management So bizar. I've been in a few companies with senior "hardcore" engineers heads down in code, without management responsibilities. > If you cannot do this, the industry will just close its doors for you. Wait what? A good engineering company will strive for a mix of seniority within teams of ICs. Some of these seniors ma…

Most companies are not "good" engineering companies. They are at best mediocre.

Re: The Staff Engineer's Path – Book Review

#114

Post by proc0 »

Xeoncross wrote: post #34
UncleMeat wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software engineering . Most engineering is this way. Somebody needs to build a thing that isn't too different from other things on a budget and a timeline. Your typical civil engineer isn't designing a new burj khalifa. Most software engineering is about organizing a group of people to build a thing for a customer that isn't too different from other things, on time and on budget. There just simply aren't as many jobs…

So are we saying that software engineering can be at odds with your ability to write code? I'm not sure most people would say they are quite the dichotomy you present here. While I agree it's often a team-sport, being able to create amazing things yourself (i.e. Git, Redis, RollerCoaster Tycoon, Rust and other single-person projects) that others struggle to replicate or contribute too shouldn't mean you're a bad soft…

> So are we saying that software engineering can be at odds with your ability to write code?

This is absolutely the case and my main struggle as a SE. In my opinion this is all arbitrary and companies could easily structure themselves to allow engineers to focus on what they do best, instead of adding a ton of overhead with tasks that someone else that is not trained as an engineer could do. The response seems to always be the same and boils down to "you need to add business value and that includes all these other easy but time consuming tasks".

I seriously doubt that is the only way, but I haven't build a large software company so ultimately it is hard for me to say, however I suspect that if an engineer's time is maximized to practice engineering, it would bring a lot more business value in the long run.

Re: The Staff Engineer's Path – Book Review

#115

Post by leothecool »

Xeoncross wrote: post #15

Where do all the hardcore engineering jobs live? I've been bothered by the fact that most advanced engineering roles like "staff" actually mean "manager who does system design as well" Where are the docker/redis/next.js/linux kernel/qt/roller-coaster tycoon creators? Where are the people creating amazing software and do they get a special "advanced developer" title? I guess, I'm curious if there are actual roles in c…

We're all out here chilling in the midwest working at lifestyle businesses.

Re: The Staff Engineer's Path – Book Review

#116

Post by proc0 »

coliveira wrote: post #102
Xeoncross wrote: post #15

Where do all the hardcore engineering jobs live? I've been bothered by the fact that most advanced engineering roles like "staff" actually mean "manager who does system design as well" Where are the docker/redis/next.js/linux kernel/qt/roller-coaster tycoon creators? Where are the people creating amazing software and do they get a special "advanced developer" title? I guess, I'm curious if there are actual roles in c…

> Where do all the hardcore engineering jobs live There is NO such thing as hardcore engineer job position that doesn't involve a lot of management. All the good engineers that get jobs are the ones who do management work as well as coding. If you cannot do this, the industry will just close its doors for you.

In my opinion this is a big reason software is so brittle, needs to be constantly patched and updated, and overall innovation in software moves very slowly. Having engineers do management work is undermining how hard engineering is -OR- underestimating how powerful software is.

In other words, the Idea is that engineers adds more value to a company if they also do all these management tasks, which implies that engineering is not enough and is not as valuable on its own - something I would contend because as we can see software is capable of amazing things like AI that will soon automate all these management tasks anyway. If companies invested in their engineers doing only engineering, then people could maximize their skills, and reach those new levels of productivity thanks to advanced software. Instead the industry limits engineers, and insists on them hitting a technical ceiling, effectively pushing them in a non-technical direction in favor of hiring younger engineers to do the "grunt work". Software engineering is only grunt work when you don't understand its true potential, and its endless complexity that takes a lifetime to master.

Re: The Staff Engineer's Path – Book Review

#117

Post by alistairSH »

Xeoncross wrote: post #15

Where do all the hardcore engineering jobs live? I've been bothered by the fact that most advanced engineering roles like "staff" actually mean "manager who does system design as well" Where are the docker/redis/next.js/linux kernel/qt/roller-coaster tycoon creators? Where are the people creating amazing software and do they get a special "advanced developer" title? I guess, I'm curious if there are actual roles in c…

Depending on the company, this could also be a senior architect, technical fellow, or something similar. Or just an engineering manager or tech lead. It's hard to know from the outside exactly what each role really means.

My employer has Technical Fellow at the top of the architect job family. It's equivalent to a director or senior director in seniority, but remains an individual contributor. These are the people creating (or more accurately, enabling the creation of) the really amazing software here.

But, given the business we're in, the software they build is never going to enter the common lexicon like Uber or Google or whatever.

And I'm a little confused by your "most companies are consumers" comment. Sure, in a literal sense, most software projects are built using tools written by somebody else. If you want to be building those tools, you need to get a job at someplace that builds tools (which usually means proving yourself an expert in a particular niche/tool/whatever). But, there's plenty of software between "simple CRUD" and "creators the next [impactful tool or infrastructure]"

Re: The Staff Engineer's Path – Book Review

#118

Post by alistairSH »

etamponi wrote: post #70
simonw wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've been bothered by the fact that most advanced engineering roles like "staff" actually mean "manager who does system design as well" The definition I have generally seen for "staff engineer" is an engineering leadership position without direct reports - I see "manager" as generally meaning "has direct reports". I think this is important: leadership and management are not the same things!

Can you explain better the difference? I am trying to figure this out myself for a while...

I'm a software engineering manager.

I'm responsible for the wellbeing of my direct reports. I need to ensure they can grow their careers. I need to know when they're stressed or burnt out or bored. I need to manage projects and be a shit umbrella.

While I am technically strong, I have architects and technical fellows who are WAY stronger than me. I work closely with them to ensure we're adopting the latest best practices and tools. They do much of the system design. They also mentor newer employees, but they don't have direct responsibility for those employee's careers. And they don't have direct responsibility for the success or failure of any given project.

Re: The Staff Engineer's Path – Book Review

#119

Post by Bjartr »

withinboredom wrote: post #100
nonethewiser wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Something I learned relatively late in my career was that really impressive work is the result of iterations in tiny steps. I think you are right. Really impressive work is generally the result of a longer journey than you realize. The time and effort put into it is probably underestimated. But my mind immediately tries to think of exceptions (which totally prove the rule). I'm curious if others would agree with th…

> People have recreated that core game many times with fairly trivial code Yes, because they have something to reference. It was like Notch took a level editor and made it into the game itself. That isn't an easy thing to figure out and takes time. > Sometimes there are just really great ideas. Ideas are easy and usually it's really stupid ideas that turn out to be great ideas. Who would think that an FPS level edito…

> Notch took a level editor and made it into the game itself. That isn't an easy thing to figure out and takes time.

He built an infiniminer clone for himself when it was discontinued. It certainly grew into more than that, but that's where it started.

Re: The Staff Engineer's Path – Book Review

#120

Post by biscuits1 »

timacles wrote: post #94
onion2k wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are the docker/redis/next.js/linux kernel/qt/roller-coaster tycoon creators? Something I learned relatively late in my career was that really impressive work is the result of iterations in tiny steps. When you see something that makes you go "WOW! I could never do that!" you're seeing the final result of a long journey, and you probably could have taken each small step with a bit of effort. There's no need for…

The thing that separates those guys from everyone else is simple. Its stamina. No there isn't some higher level of understanding or deep perception. Every one of the all time great programmers had 1 exact thing in common with no exceptions. Stamina. You will not find a single outlier. They did their craft every day, for many hours, year after year. So sure, any of us could have taken the individual small steps. But w…

Stamina isn't the word I would go for. It would be commitment. For those that have loads of stamina, it's the commitment to continuous creative encounters that leads to the perceived magic.

From "Courage to Create" by Rollo May: "It is said that the novelist Thomas Wolfe, who was one of the highly creative figures of the American scene, that he was a "genius without talent." But he was so creative because he threw himself so completely in the material and the challenge of saying it-he was great because of the intensity of his encounter"

Apologies going philosophical, its the only way to debate such an answer-science has no real answers for this title we call "staff engineer"

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