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Texas professor fails entire class from graduating- claiming they used ChatGTP

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Re: Texas professor fails entire class from graduating- claiming they used ChatGTP

#271

Post by mariusor »

hammyhavoc wrote: post #216
mariusor wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's still debatable if there are any AI researchers at all because ML is not AI by a long shot. Also I think he considers himself more of an AI philosopher than a "researcher" anyway, and that, in my opinion, gives his words as much weight as any others'.

... ML is quite literally a sub-field of AI. That's quite literally the MIT definition of it.

Allow me to go hypothetical for a moment: do you really believe that the emergence of AI will come strictly from ML advancements?

I do not, and based on the direction of ML progress from the last couple of years I am becoming more and more certain that it will have a low impact on AI, if/when that materializes.

Therefore I won't scoff at someone that's not involved in ML but still considers themselves as being part of the AI world, at least not without more evidence that they're an impostor. Take John Carmack for example, at which people look down in similar ways, because has no formal training in ML.

I think AI field at present is in an pre-Enlightenment period, where people studying astrology, alchemy mix up freely with astronomers, chemists and philosophers and it will take some time until we can discern the useful from the useless, or from the outright harmful.

Re: Texas professor fails entire class from graduating- claiming they used ChatGTP

#272

Post by hammyhavoc »

mariusor wrote: post #271
hammyhavoc wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... ML is quite literally a sub-field of AI. That's quite literally the MIT definition of it.

Allow me to go hypothetical for a moment: do you really believe that the emergence of AI will come strictly from ML advancements? I do not, and based on the direction of ML progress from the last couple of years I am becoming more and more certain that it will have a low impact on AI, if/when that materializes. Therefore I won't scoff at someone that's not involved in ML but still considers themselves as being part o…

I don't think AGI as we fantasize about will ever exist, period. Not unless we completely change our computational paradigm to at least partially biological or quantum.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/10/14/1128875...

This has my attention, particularly from an ethics perspective in terms of slavery.

Re: Texas professor fails entire class from graduating- claiming they used ChatGTP

#273

Post by dotnet00 »

revelio wrote: post #268
dotnet00 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're asking for ~2000 minutes to examine a class of 100. That means either having many more TAs than most classes have or making examination periods way longer than they are. Then, even with all that you aren't really making any real improvement, as the skills involved in an oral exam are not necessarily relevant to those which need to be tested, thus making the exam at best similar in uselessness to a written exam…

So 33 hours of work, or a bit less than a week by one person then? Why is this thread full of academics claiming that apparently normal workloads of the sort everyone takes on, or trivial solutions of the sort high school teachers manage, is somehow impossible for them? They do realize they're accepting money in return for a commitment to do teaching activities, right?

An entire week of nothing but oral presentations, and you really can't see how that's completely unrealistic? Do you think the only things professors (or students for that matter) have to do is go to lectures and listen to oral exams?

Re: Texas professor fails entire class from graduating- claiming they used ChatGTP

#274

Post by JohnFen »

circuit10 wrote: post #233
JohnFen wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it had no model of what it was writing about it wouldn’t be able to write anything coherent. It has a model of the structure of writing on the internet. It can produce text that adheres to that model. That's all that's required for coherent writing.

And the structure of writing in the Internet includes a lot about the world, so a good model of that must contain some form of world model to make accurate predictions

The only model necessary is that of the writing. So if the writing so far is "He went to the bar", the LLM can know just from the language model that a reasonable next fragment could be "...to have a drink".

That doesn't require or imply that the concept of "bar", "drink", or even "He" or the concept of motion has been modelled. The model is of the patterns of tokens (words/characters/whatever).

Re: Texas professor fails entire class from graduating- claiming they used ChatGTP

#275

Post by anotheryou »

croes wrote: post #77
anotheryou wrote: post #10

BY ASKING CHATGTP IF IT'S CHATGTP GENERATED -_- wtf. even the dedicated detectors don't work well.

Because people keep calling it an artificial intelligence instead a text generator. So some people think it is intelligent and could reason

It absolutely does reason. not on a human level, but it does.

To predict the next token you still have to have some level of simulation of the world. To predict my next word you'd have to simulate my life. It's not there yet, but there is no clear boundary to "intelligence" it would not have passed.

Re: Texas professor fails entire class from graduating- claiming they used ChatGTP

#276

Post by slowmovintarget »

CydeWeys wrote: post #100
Reason077 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just had ChatGPT write me a poem, and then in a new session, pasted the poem back in and asked it if it wrote it. The response? "No, I did not write that poem. I am an AI language model, and I generate responses based on patterns and information in the data I have been trained on. I don't have the capability to write original poems or claim authorship of any specific text."

The thing about LLMs that a lot of people haven't cottoned onto yet is that they're essentially constantly lying. They have no concept of truth and also no concept of certainty. This makes them much less useful for a lot of tasks then people realize.

They don't model knowledge, they model statistical matches to desired text.

An LLM can't "know" that it is fabricating or conveying real-world fact. It can take as input: "that statement is false." Depending on the sophistication of the model, it will then retain that correlation for that session. But start another session, and it can generate the same or similar text that is inconsistent with real-world fact, or even with input.

Re: Texas professor fails entire class from graduating- claiming they used ChatGTP

#277

Post by revelio »

dotnet00 wrote: post #273
revelio wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So 33 hours of work, or a bit less than a week by one person then? Why is this thread full of academics claiming that apparently normal workloads of the sort everyone takes on, or trivial solutions of the sort high school teachers manage, is somehow impossible for them? They do realize they're accepting money in return for a commitment to do teaching activities, right?

An entire week of nothing but oral presentations, and you really can't see how that's completely unrealistic? Do you think the only things professors (or students for that matter) have to do is go to lectures and listen to oral exams?

Are you saying their research is of such vital urgency that a one week delay would matter?

Look, there are constituencies that matter here other than academics. There are the students who have a reasonable expectation that their grade means something and isn't corrupted by other students cheating. And the rest of the world has a reasonable expectation that academics do a good job of teaching and assessment. The vast majority of people care far more about this aspect than the research aspect, so the fact that academics seem to be giving up on teaching and assessment is going to result in a world of richly deserved pain for universities one day.

Re: Texas professor fails entire class from graduating- claiming they used ChatGTP

#278

Post by dotnet00 »

revelio wrote: post #277
dotnet00 wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An entire week of nothing but oral presentations, and you really can't see how that's completely unrealistic? Do you think the only things professors (or students for that matter) have to do is go to lectures and listen to oral exams?

Are you saying their research is of such vital urgency that a one week delay would matter? Look, there are constituencies that matter here other than academics. There are the students who have a reasonable expectation that their grade means something and isn't corrupted by other students cheating. And the rest of the world has a reasonable expectation that academics do a good job of teaching and assessment. The vast…

They aren't just doing research, they have several classes to manage, often PhDs and graduate students to supervise, and exams happen 2-3 times in a typical semester of 15 weeks. Add on that as exam periods approach, professors also tend to get pretty busy in office hours with students who need help. Combine that with the student's own situation of having 4-5 classes to deal with.

Sure, students have a reasonable expectation of having their grade mean something, but it's obvious that oral exams are not the solution. It's also kind of hilarious that in this thread, about a professor falsely accusing an entire class of cheating, you seem to imply that there is enough cheating going on for grades to be meaningless.

Re: Texas professor fails entire class from graduating- claiming they used ChatGTP

#279

Post by dragonwriter »

slowmovintarget wrote: post #276
CydeWeys wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing about LLMs that a lot of people haven't cottoned onto yet is that they're essentially constantly lying. They have no concept of truth and also no concept of certainty. This makes them much less useful for a lot of tasks then people realize.

They don't model knowledge, they model statistical matches to desired text. An LLM can't "know" that it is fabricating or conveying real-world fact. It can take as input: "that statement is false." Depending on the sophistication of the model, it will then retain that correlation for that session. But start another session, and it can generate the same or similar text that is inconsistent with real-world fact, or eve…

> They don’t model knowledge, they model statistical matches to desired text.

I am not convinced that this is not a method of modelling knowledge.

> But start another session, and it can generate the same or similar text that is inconsistent with real-world fact, or even with input.

I’m not sure why this is meaningful, aside from the misleading metaphor of a named LLM as an individual; named LLMs are more analogous to genetic templates that code for some instinctive capabilities; if you want an analog to an individual, a single session (for a chat-oriented LLM-centered system) is the most appropriate unit of analysis.

Re: Texas professor fails entire class from graduating- claiming they used ChatGTP

#280

Post by michaelt »

dotnet00 wrote: post #273
revelio wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So 33 hours of work, or a bit less than a week by one person then? Why is this thread full of academics claiming that apparently normal workloads of the sort everyone takes on, or trivial solutions of the sort high school teachers manage, is somehow impossible for them? They do realize they're accepting money in return for a commitment to do teaching activities, right?

An entire week of nothing but oral presentations, and you really can't see how that's completely unrealistic? Do you think the only things professors (or students for that matter) have to do is go to lectures and listen to oral exams?

> An entire week of nothing but oral presentations, and you really can't see how that's completely unrealistic?

That class of 100 has likely paid the university over $1 million in tuition, even if they're all in-state students. Assuming they take 12 courses, we've got $83k per course coming in.

Assuming each TA is paid a generous $20 per hour, that's $800 for a 40-hour week.

I'm no professor, but I'm pretty sure $800 is less than $83,000. I know universities have a lot of overheads, but surely 1% of the tuition money could be spent on tuition?

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