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Malcolm Gladwell versus Ayn Rand: Who is right?

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Re: Malcolm Gladwell versus Ayn Rand: Who is right?

#31

Post by ScottHanson »

KeshRivya wrote: post #24
Ztrain wrote: post #4

Ayn Rand is the philospher for the shallow and immature.

Ayn Rand is the philospher for the shallow and immature. - Concurred.

"As for the article being garbage, I appreciate where the author is coming from, but it's not insightful enough to warrant a link. Not to say it won't stir up the Objectivists here a whole lot."

The article has value in that it's stirred up an examination of Positivism. Too many college kids get all caught up in this nonsense. Then the join the Republican Party as a result.

Re: Malcolm Gladwell versus Ayn Rand: Who is right?

#32

Post by walterk »

SwellJoe wrote: post #27
KeshRivya wrote: post #6

Rand and Gladwell represent opposites of the scale.

As far as I'm concerned they're talking about two orthogonal subjects, and I think it takes a bit of cloudy thinking to conflate the two. Rand never posited that people are born productive. Productive people are productive by virtue of doing things, in Ayn's world...while a lot of other people are envious of the doing and stand in their way. People can become productive. Individualism requires that people can do what…

Rand never made her sociological understanding of how people become productive explicit because she sort of didn't have any. That's what enables her to view the highly productive and the less productive (or unproductive or even counterproductive) as good and evil, respectively. If she actually understood the subtle forces at work, she wouldn't have been so quick to judge.

Re: Malcolm Gladwell versus Ayn Rand: Who is right?

#34

Post by walterk »

noonespecial wrote: post #9
Ztrain wrote: post #4

Ayn Rand is the philospher for the shallow and immature.

I think many people read Rand all wrong. I found large elements of satire in Atlas and Fountainhead. Like Orwell in Animal Farm, she created a silly cartoon version of the world with its dynamics hugely out or proportion in order to bring out the subtle absurdities of modern life and government. You're not supposed to read it and decided to move to the mountains of Colorado. You're supposed to read it and then have a…

I'm not sure the gigantic speech at the end of Atlas Shrugged is merely about getting you to "wonder" if some change is in order. Rand wrote exactly what she thought you should think.

Re: Malcolm Gladwell versus Ayn Rand: Who is right?

#35

Post by SwellJoe »

walterk wrote: post #32
SwellJoe wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I'm concerned they're talking about two orthogonal subjects, and I think it takes a bit of cloudy thinking to conflate the two. Rand never posited that people are born productive. Productive people are productive by virtue of doing things, in Ayn's world...while a lot of other people are envious of the doing and stand in their way. People can become productive. Individualism requires that people can do what…

Rand never made her sociological understanding of how people become productive explicit because she sort of didn't have any. That's what enables her to view the highly productive and the less productive (or unproductive or even counterproductive) as good and evil, respectively. If she actually understood the subtle forces at work, she wouldn't have been so quick to judge.

I don't disagree with that. It doesn't alter the fact that the author of the article manages to misunderstand a lot of things, and then presents it as useful discourse. I just wanted to call out that cloudy thinking. It's a pet peeve.

Re: Malcolm Gladwell versus Ayn Rand: Who is right?

#36

Post by anthonyrubin »

KeshRivya wrote: post #22
pragmatic wrote: post #15

What's the deal with linking to this crappy "So You Want to be a Billionaire" site? It's obviously blog spam of the worst kind. Using Rand for bait is a nice touch.

And yet here we all are engaged in an empassioned argument over it.

Here we are rehashing silly debates about Ayn Rand instead of discussing the ideas contained in the original article.

Re: Malcolm Gladwell versus Ayn Rand: Who is right?

#37

Post by KrisZolar »

walterk wrote: post #30
lionhearted wrote: post #20

Garbage article. The article misses that Rand's books are romantic, whereas Gladwell is a journalist. Rand writes fiction; Gladwell writes theories based on anecdotes and statistics. For an analogy, that'd be a lot like saying "Pablo Piccasso, or xyz modern photographer: Who is right?" The guy's synopsis of Rand is pretty telling --> "Atlas Shrugged is a similar story. In it a group of scientists and tycoons decide i…

The article misses that Rand's books are romantic, whereas Gladwell is a journalist. Rand writes fiction; Gladwell writes theories based on anecdotes and statistics. For an analogy, that'd be a lot like saying "Pablo Piccasso, or xyz modern photographer: Who is right?" Not sure what profession has to do with a comparison of beliefs.

But fools take it literally.

Re: Malcolm Gladwell versus Ayn Rand: Who is right?

#38

Post by 13ren »

Why do people on HN discuss the title, and not the content? The average discussion on reddit/programming (for example) is now of higher quality than HN these days, for the same story - and with less oneupmanship.

To me, the interesting thing about this story isn't the presentation of the thesis (using Ayn Rand), but to question the thesis itself: Is success more circumstantial than personal? http://nymag.com/arts/books/features/52014/index6.html

The hockey player example creates a subset of advantaged people (i.e. those born nearer the start of the year), for which evidence is claimed.

I'm not sure about the "rice fields" causation, but I have observed, and it's well known that students who are culturally asian study harder. But again, "asian students" is a subset of all students.

In contrast, Bill Gates and the Beatles are subsets of one each. What about all the other bands who played Hamburg (Ringo wasn't there anyway)? Was there a wave of "Hamburg" bands?

And what about all the other kids who had a computer lab - for one thing, Bill wasn't the only kid in that school.

Circumstance (obviously) can provide providential assistance - though it's worth noting that the aid given in all the above cases was not a gift, but more work. And I certainly agree with that - skill comes from practice.

It might be that your potential is set at birth; and there is nothing you can do about it - you cannot affect it in the slightest, no matter what you do or how hard you try. But there is no way of knowing what that potential is... except by practicing as hard and as long as these guys did and finding out.

Re: Malcolm Gladwell versus Ayn Rand: Who is right?

#39

Post by ScottHanson »

prospero wrote: post #28
lionhearted wrote: post #20

Garbage article. The article misses that Rand's books are romantic, whereas Gladwell is a journalist. Rand writes fiction; Gladwell writes theories based on anecdotes and statistics. For an analogy, that'd be a lot like saying "Pablo Piccasso, or xyz modern photographer: Who is right?" The guy's synopsis of Rand is pretty telling --> "Atlas Shrugged is a similar story. In it a group of scientists and tycoons decide i…

Rand's vilification of people who disagree with her is irritating, but what's more troublesome is the victim mentality that goes along with it. Inevitably the protagonist (who is handsome, smart, determined, and surprisingly domineering in the bedroom) is held back by the mediocrity of the masses. If only circumstances were different, the books tell us over and over again, our hero could achieve his true potential. T…

Rand's vilification of people who disagree with her is irritating, but what's more troublesome is the victim mentality that goes along with it. Inevitably the protagonist (who is handsome, smart, determined, and surprisingly domineering in the bedroom) is held back by the mediocrity of the masses. If only circumstances were different, the books tell us over and over again, our hero could achieve his true potential. -

Hence the blogger's comment:

"Atlas Shrugged is a similar story. In it a group of scientists and tycoons decide in equally petulant fashion that they will "simply take their ball and go home", when society refuses to capitulate to their capricious demands. So what happens? Well, according to Ayn Rand everything in the world grinds to a halt. In her bizarre world view, no replacements are available amongst the rest of humanity to rise up to the occasion and take over from the cry-babies who have gone home in a snit."

Yes, in real life others would have stepped up to the plate.

Re: Malcolm Gladwell versus Ayn Rand: Who is right?

#40

Post by anthonyrubin »

unalone wrote: post #19
anamax wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or the answer could be on an entirely different scale, so they're equally wrong.

Any examples of how this would work? I'm a bit confused.

If it were found that people are more or less productive/successful based on the amount of iron in their diets during early childhood they would both be proven wrong (this example is strictly for illustration).

I believe that there are many contributing factors and possible paths to productivity and success (as well as many ways to measure both).

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