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EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

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Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#331

Post by freejazz »

rayiner wrote: post #207
asdfman123 wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re right, that is a misquote. But what he actually wrote honestly wasn’t that much better. The problem with a lot of these sorts things is intentionally making yourself blind to the emotional impact, pretending not to know, when some part of you does understand what you’re doing. It’s all just plausible deniability. We get it quite clearly, we don’t need it explained to us. You might say this is tone policing but…

> You’re right, that is a misquote. But what he actually wrote honestly wasn’t that much better. “Much better” in what sense? I think Minsky is guilty because using sex workers is categorically immoral. But most on HN don’t agree with me, and think that it would’ve been no problem had Virginia Giuffre been 18 and willing. In that case, doesn’t Minsky’s moral culpability turn on whether he knew Giuffre was 17 and unwi…

17 is legal all over the US - I don't really think you are grasping the issue with Epstein, his island, the victims, and the gentleman he invited there.

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#332

Post by freejazz »

rayiner wrote: post #323
sph wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American culture, including Puritanism, being exported worldwide since the 1980s, first through Hollywood and then through tech. You will not find a less Puritanical view of the matter on a forum composed of mostly people from the US or deeply embedded within its culture, like many software engineers are. For US and tech, sex talk and sexual freedom is a concept best avoided. You'll find more people arguing against g…

Americans are sexual deviants by the standards of Asia (where I’m from), the Middle East, and Africa.

Keep telling yourself that.

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#333

Post by prepend »

anonymouskimmer wrote: post #321
prepend wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a silly rule as a 40 year old marrying a 20 year old breaks the rule and there are many situations where this can be explained. And it’s legal everywhere. This rule isn’t a rule at all as a heuristic to use at dinner parties to be snooty about rich people and trophy wives (they are almost always rich old men with young women exchanging their youth and beauty for wealth. It’s icky, but I think everyone underst…

I know, I said it was silly. A 40 year old coupling with a 20 year old is still icky to me due to the life experience as an adult divide. A 30 year old with a 50 year old much less so; I just think the 30 year old is setting themself up to spend a lot of time as a caretaker at some point.

I get it’s icky for you, but I think the world is trying to move into a “don’t kink shame consenting adults” phase where there’s less commenting in the vein of “sure sodomy is legal, but personally, I find it icky.” I’m not sure many people in the world are interested in what you and I find icky.

If the 30 year is mentally incompetent and unaware of their future as a caretaker then the issue isn’t age, but abuse of the mentally incompetent. And, again, I don’t think this applies to your intent but it reminds me of people complaining about how hard it is to live as a gay person or interracial marriage, etc etc. Where the various difficulties are noted when discussing if it should be allowed or not. Interracial marriage is a right as long as they are consenting adults.

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#334

Post by freejazz »

rayiner wrote: post #324
friend_and_foe wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most of the world prostitution is either legal or tolerated and not really looked down upon. You might be right that it is an opinion, but you're wrong that it is not held by the majority globally. Most people throughout the world would agree with the person you're responding to.

Prostitution is illegal throughout Asia, which has a plurality of the world’s population: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Asia . Even in places where it is legal or semi-legal, it is an unspeakably grave moral offense. For example it’s legal in Bangladesh, where I’m from. But that’s because it’s viewed as a last resort for desperate women who have no families in a country that has no social safety net.…

That they are outcasts is just surface level societal judgment and not at all addressing what actually occurs in the society nor how perverted people actually are in it, despite you insisting otherwise up and down this thread

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#335

Post by freejazz »

historygurl wrote: post #230
bitwize wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Patronizing a prostitute under 18 years of age is a federal crime throughout the United States, irrespective of local age-of-consent laws.

Which just demonstrates how nuts this all is. You’re in this jurisdiction on day X it’s one crime, another jurisdiction on day X+1 it’s another crime. There are real crimes happening you can get upset about (and maybe even do something about). This is about internet points for people that want to be seen to be upset. They are trading on the suffering of the very people they purport to represent.

Age of consent != Age where one can legally prostitute themselves

Simple as

And real crimes? Like trafficking teenaged women around the world to be used as sex slaves to please one's powerful male associates?

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#336

Post by [deleted] »

rayiner wrote: post #323
sph wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American culture, including Puritanism, being exported worldwide since the 1980s, first through Hollywood and then through tech. You will not find a less Puritanical view of the matter on a forum composed of mostly people from the US or deeply embedded within its culture, like many software engineers are. For US and tech, sex talk and sexual freedom is a concept best avoided. You'll find more people arguing against g…

Americans are sexual deviants by the standards of Asia (where I’m from), the Middle East, and Africa.

[deleted]

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#337

Post by peoplefromibiza »

rayiner wrote: post #225
myshpa wrote: post #145

"The original Remove Richard Stallman post contained leaked communications from a private mailing list. In it, the author quotes an email from Stallman where he explains that Marvin Minsky likely wouldn’t have known that the woman on Jeffrey Epstein’s island was coerced: …the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had…

> he says that an enslaved child could, somehow, be “entirely willing”. I think the real problem is that the journalist lacks the moral vocabulary to explain why RMS and Minsky are both wrong, and must resort to nonsensical legalisms. Virginia Giuffre was 17 when this happened, making her, in the words of the author, “an enslaved child.” But according to sex-positive feminism a mere year later she could’ve be an empo…

> a 17 year old is a child and cannot meaningfully consent

Careful with broad assumptions.

That's not true in most European countries, for example.

> And Minsky sure as hell knew that Giuffre was young and not on equal footing with himself.

So what?

Madonna is only dating guys that are at least 30 years younger than she is.

Anyway, sex between Minsky and Giuffre was never proved and, most of all, what Stallman said has nothing to do with it, he simply said that if someone send a girl to have sex with you, she's gonna act as willing and will probably lie about her age. Ans that it is pretty ridiculous that at 17 years + 364 days you're considered a child, but they day after you are free to become a sex worker. People should not jump from being kids to adulthood just because the law says so, they should go through different phases of increasing responsibilities and agency.

At my age it's difficult for me to tell 17 years old people and 27 years old people apart They look the same to me. A few times I've asked aren't you too young to drink/smoke? and they were over 25 and got pretty offended by my question.

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#338

Post by anonymouskimmer »

prepend wrote: post #333
anonymouskimmer wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know, I said it was silly. A 40 year old coupling with a 20 year old is still icky to me due to the life experience as an adult divide. A 30 year old with a 50 year old much less so; I just think the 30 year old is setting themself up to spend a lot of time as a caretaker at some point.

I get it’s icky for you, but I think the world is trying to move into a “don’t kink shame consenting adults” phase where there’s less commenting in the vein of “sure sodomy is legal, but personally, I find it icky.” I’m not sure many people in the world are interested in what you and I find icky. If the 30 year is mentally incompetent and unaware of their future as a caretaker then the issue isn’t age, but abuse of t…

There are kinks which deserved to be shamed, and these are the kinks in which grooming and ratcheted boundary violations exist. This includes relationships which weren't always seen as kinks, but have become so as society has evolved.

Age is a parameter which can sometimes be shamed because of possible differentials in experience. It can't be shamed all of the time, but there are valid reasons to use it as a first-line gate, even after age-of-consent laws are no longer in the picture.

Part of the pressure to move the world into a total '“don’t kink shame consenting adults” phase' is from people with abusive kinks who don't want to be checked on their abuse. Screw them. Every kink deserves nested evaluation as to whether it should be totally shamed, generally shamed (with exceptions), generally not-shamed (with exceptions), or seen as okay to do in private (but not public), or seen as okay in general.

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#339

Post by sph »

jjeaff wrote: post #281
1827163 wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is so true. The "morality" when it comes to sex, is thinly disguised religious dogma, that has been passed down the generations unquestioned. A 17 year old is absolutely capable of consent. However I feel if she has been manipulated in any way then it should be illegal.

It's quite the opposite. Religious dogma is quite comfortable with young women marrying old men and sleeping with them. It is modern morality with out better understanding of psychology and brain development that lead many people to believe that sex in extreme age differences and extreme power imbalances is fraught. And in many cases, immoral. Regardless of whether the young person is a day under or a day over the "a…

> I would posit that cases where a 17 year old is sleeping with a 55 year old and it is NOT due to some form of coercion, are extremely rare.

Only if you assume that for some reason minors are pure and always operate rationally and "morally", thus it is just impossible that a 17 year old has decided that, yes, they want to have sex with a much older person. And somehow when they turn 18 their brain completely reconfigures.

Because I've been 17, I've had friends that age that wanted to do just that by their own accord, and some that have gone through that fantasy, without being coerced whatsoever. It's a bit weird, not really my cup of tea, but I know what being a horny teenager feels like.

While I am strongly in favour of 18 being the arbitrary threshold of consent, we as society need to remember that teenagers become sexual beings much earlier than 18 years old. It's simple biology, and I wonder if many of these "prudes" have lived a weirdly sheltered childhood and have not experienced normal sexual development.

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#340

Post by freejazz »

arp242 wrote: post #176
ianburrell wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gates met with Epstein repeatedly, in-person. He visited Epstein's home, he flew on Epstein's jet, they about Gates Foundation deal. Gates knew Epstein from earlier so likely would have known about the conviction. Also, it sounds like relationship soured in 2014.

That's all very superficial though; "flew on Epstein's jet" can mean anything from "let's discuss my donations to your foundation while we're travelling from A to B" to less savoury things.

I don't think being arrested for sex trafficking children is superficial, but I guess we each have our own limits
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