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Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease

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Re: Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease

#221

Post by dcow »

justin66 wrote: post #205
dcow wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but it’s not a lie to say it was phased out in the 70s. Your comment would be more substantial and useful if you made whatever nuance you’re trying to highlight clear.

> Yes but it’s not a lie to say it was phased out in the 70s I don't understand why you would write that, particularly after having read my comments and throwaway2037's comment on this thread. "This is a chemical that is currently produced in various forms by companies and used by people in 2023" and "it was phased out in the 1970s" would seem to be mutually contradictory facts. There's no "nuance" involved. I get th…

Mass, widespread, unchecked use and subsequent dumping of the chemical was phased out because that practice was understood to be harmful to people and the environment. The fact that it is now used in a controlled and regulated manner is entirely different. You either missed this nuance, or you are deliberately being obtuse to make a point that "it's technically still used" which, obviously, is true, and also doesn't contradict the fact that it was phased out in the 70s once found to be poisonous.

Re: Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease

#222

Post by xenonite »

dist-epoch wrote: post #86
astura wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this - If you don't enjoy the experience of drinking coffee, and just want the caffeine, then why not just take a caffeine pill?

Or you could drink an energy drink/sugar free cola instead.

No, the chemical compounds of those can have quite adverse effects. Sweeteners are linked with insuline problems.

Re: Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease

#223

Post by swasheck »

gr1zzlybe4r wrote: post #217
TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TCE is present at Lowry in Denver, an old air force base that is now a huge development of multi-million dollar homes and townhomes. This article is from 2000, before the housing development began. People knew TCE was there but the housing development happened anyway https://extras.denverpost.com/news/news1126.htm It’s also at Stapleton, another huge residential area, and previously Denver’s primary airport: “At the…

There seems to be a crazy amount of chemical waste all over the metro Denver area. I don't live in Lowry, but I play hockey maybe once every 1 to 2 months at Big Bear Ice Arena, which is in that neighborhood. There's also the Rocky Flats nuclear site, the chemical plant in Lakewood, and also the wildlife "refuge" north of the city. Seems somewhat ironic given Colorado's reputation for pristine natural beauty.

the 40s and 50s were unkind to the american west and to denver, in particular. a lot of the natural beauty is actually west of denver in the places that couldnt be exploited by rockwell, lockheed, and other participants in that military/industrial complex.

i also wonder how much of the environmental focus that denver-boulder is known for is something of a reaction to that exploitation.

Re: Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease

#224

Post by DemocracyFTW2 »

anaisbetts wrote: post #24

Widely used chemical *(that was generally phased out in the 70s) linked to Parkinson's. Still important, but you don't need to start searching product labels in 2023 for it.

I'm not for panicked reporting, but in the face of the stated facts (as far as true) your comment is overly dismissive:

the chemical solvent trichloroethylene (TCE)—common in soil and groundwater—increases the risk of developing Parkinson’s disease. The movement disorder afflicts about 1 million Americans, and is likely the fastest growing neurodegenerative disease in the world; its global prevalence has doubled in the past 25 years.

It’s used today mainly in producing refrigerants and as a degreaser in heavy industry.

But in the 20th century, TCE was used for many purposes, including making decaffeinated coffee, dry cleaning, carpet cleaning, and as an inhaled surgical anesthetic for children and women in labor. TCE is highly persistent in soil and groundwater; inhalation through vapor from these hidden sources is likely the prime route of exposure today. However, it’s detectable in many foods, in up to one-third of U.S. drinking water, and in breast milk, blood, and urine.

Re: Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease

#225

Post by masfuerte »

nickdothutton wrote: post #47

IANAC (I am not a chemist, and certainly not an organic chemist ) but I know that contamination by former dry cleaning sites (almost always near built up areas, in small parades of shops, often near schools, gardens, etc) is a very serious problem. In the past, such businesses frequently dumped waste into drains, soak-always, pits, or in fact anywhere other than paying to have it treated properly. Probably the only o…

In the UK the soil around old petrol stations is usually highly contaminated and they are often found near houses.

Re: Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease

#226

Post by anjel »

xadhominemx wrote: post #209
TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TCE is present at Lowry in Denver, an old air force base that is now a huge development of multi-million dollar homes and townhomes. This article is from 2000, before the housing development began. People knew TCE was there but the housing development happened anyway https://extras.denverpost.com/news/news1126.htm It’s also at Stapleton, another huge residential area, and previously Denver’s primary airport: “At the…

Its certainly in the soil and groundwater - but why would it be in the air?

It's no longer uncommon to (carbon) filter drinking water at the tap or in your fridge, which then makes a hot shower likely a major avenue into your body by way of your lungs unless you filter water for the whole house plumbing system.

Re: Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease

#227

Post by scythe »

mouse_ wrote: post #182
sidpatil wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It never made sense to me to use hydrocarbon solvents in a food application I get your point, but isn't this kind of a broad statement? After all, ethanol is a hydrocarbon solvent, and it's been used in food applications for a long time.

Ethanol is also a horrible toxin, it just happens to be common enough in nature that our bodies, and animal bodies as well, have had hundreds of thousands of years to evolve some mitigations against.

Ethanol is only a "horrible toxin" if it's consumed in amounts that would be nearly or certainly lethal for any other solvent (save water). Human gut bacteria do not produce trichloroethylene.

As organic solvents go, ethanol is one of the safest — but it's too flammable for dry cleaners.

Re: Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease

#228

Post by scythe »

sidpatil wrote: post #169
horeszko wrote: post #73

>"But in the 20th century, TCE was used for many purposes, including making decaffeinated coffee" ... This is exactly the reason I never touched decaf coffee until I found Swiss water process (SWP) decaf. It never made sense to me to use hydrocarbon solvents in a food application

> It never made sense to me to use hydrocarbon solvents in a food application I get your point, but isn't this kind of a broad statement? After all, ethanol is a hydrocarbon solvent, and it's been used in food applications for a long time.

Ethanol is not a hydrocarbon, nor is TCE. By definition, a hydrocarbon is composed of carbon and hydrogen. Ethanol contains oxygen, while TCE contains chlorine.

Re: Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease

#229

Post by justin66 »

krageon wrote: post #214
dcow wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but it’s not a lie to say it was phased out in the 70s. Your comment would be more substantial and useful if you made whatever nuance you’re trying to highlight clear.

If the poster you responded to is right, it is in fact a lie to say it was phased out in any meaningful manner. I don't see this comment as unhelpful - if the use just didn't stop, that's that. What is there to discuss? It was poison, it's still poison. it's in picrin [1], which is a spot cleaning solvent. You can buy that today. A paper from 2020 indicates that it is still used and not banned [2] [1] https://www.a-1…

It's a component in some solvents a consumer might use, as you noted, but it's also used in manufacturing, in areas where a trace amount might end up in a consumer product but the major problem is for the people who are exposed to it during that item's manufacture. (or for the people who have to deal with the manufacturer's waste)

Re: Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease

#230

Post by anonymouskimmer »

photochemsyn wrote: post #189
anaisbetts wrote: post #24

Widely used chemical *(that was generally phased out in the 70s) linked to Parkinson's. Still important, but you don't need to start searching product labels in 2023 for it.

TCE is widely used in industry (and was introduced as a replacement for more toxic and persistent solvents like chloroform, carbon tetrachloride, etc.). Such non-polar solvents remain critically important for a wide variety of manufacturing processes, e.g. > "TCE the solvent ENTEK uses is essential to ENTEK's separator manufacturing process TCE has a unique combination of chemical properties that , together , facilit…

> capturing and recycling TCE after use is fairly expensive, and since it was cheaper to buy new TCE, manufacturers would just dump their dirty used TCE, creating superfund sites etc.

This isn't a problem, us future generations can just engineer our way out of it at a cheaper cost than it would have been to deal with it in the first place.

/s - For sarcasm, and sorry.

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