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Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease

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Re: Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease

#131

Post by Alex3917 »

dist-epoch wrote: post #42
Alex3917 wrote: post #11

> It inhibits complex 1, the leading enzyme in a chain of reactions that convert food to energy in cellular organelles called mitochondria. So they upside is that it probably significantly reduces your risk of both cancer and type 2 diabetes, which you're >100x more likely to die from than Parkinson's. There are even longevity bloggers, like Peter Attia, who advocate that everyone should be taking mitochondrial compl…

> everyone should be taking mitochondrial complex 1 inhibitors These processes have billions of years of evolution behind them and are highly conserved. People shouldn't mess with them until there are huge studies, and not in the context of cancer therapy. Just because something helps with cancer, like mitochondrial complex 1 inhibitors (or radiation) doesn't mean we should all do it. Remember all the talk about how…

> Remember all the talk about how we should all eat lots of anti-oxidants to prevent cancer? It turns out it's more complicated than that, and an anti-oxidant rich diet can actually increase cancer risk.

Which is probably because Mitochondrial Complex 1 inhibitors work by producing radical oxides in the mitochondria.

I definitely agree with you that it's inherently very risky to mess around with them, but I also don't think it's at all obvious that being exposed to them will increase your all-cause mortality. It may even reduce it. We just don't know.

Re: Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease

#133

Post by throwaway2037 »

wahnfrieden wrote: post #48
coldtea wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some companies would lose money. We can't allow that.

That’s why cyanide is allowed in adult fruit and smoothie drinks without safety thresholds while it was only recently banned via pressure for children’s products. Setting a maximum amount of cyanide cuts into profits so there’s a lobby against it.

Does it come from apple seeds?

I found a paper about it: Cyanide Toxicity of Freshly Prepared Smoothies and Juices Frequently Consumed: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7731941/

Re: Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease

#134

Post by robertlagrant »

q1w2 wrote: post #79
version_five wrote: post #2

That chemical is trichloroethylene. Even Science does clickbait now.

There are two other issues with this... 1. The authors only studied two military camps. One with high TCE levels, and one with low TCE levels. But, obviously, there might be any number of other factors that are different between the two camps with a causal relationship to Parkinson's Disease. 2. There is an active class action lawsuit from this military camp. Doing a limited study that benefits one side of a class ac…

I think the phrase "linked to" should be banned in science-adjacent journalism. It's too vague. "Antibiotics are linked to disease", just negatively. Any correlation can be called a "link". Far too vague.

Re: Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease

#135

Post by walleeee »

bilbo0s wrote: post #69
gabaix wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of the most populated zones of the Bay Area are built on top of superfund sites, which have high concentration of TCE underground. https://www.epa.gov/superfund-redevelopment/superfund-sites-...

Well one problem is that "Some of the most populated zones of" everywhere are superfund sites. Another, I learned long ago in the real estate business, is that superfund sites are just the sites they've taken the trouble to bother "cleaning up". As the article alludes to, it's not the documented TCE sites we need to worry about, it's the undocumented TCE sites that will likely get the average person. This same rule a…

I can't help but think we've gone too far in limiting liability

Doing so may be an effective way to catalyze invention and economic activity but ignoring externalities becomes existentially risky as our capacities develop

If we prefer human arbitration to nature's blind and brutal judgment, we had better put toothy disincentives in place

Is it possible that occasionally punishing an honest mistake or absence of forethought may be the price we have to pay to prevent poisoning by diffusion of sociopathy?

It feels wrong, but so does perishing because the species can't deploy technology in the long term interest

Re: Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease

#136

Post by q1w2 »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #123
anaisbetts wrote: post #24

Widely used chemical *(that was generally phased out in the 70s) linked to Parkinson's. Still important, but you don't need to start searching product labels in 2023 for it.

This paragraph from the article explains the significance of the reported result (and the motivation behind the study): >> About 90% of Parkinson’s cases can’t be explained by genetics, but there have been hints that exposure to TCE may trigger it. The new study, led by researchers at the University of California, San Francisco (UCSF), represents by far the strongest environmental link between TCE and the disease. Un…

I don't see this study as strong evidence.

They only studied TWO military bases and compared the rate of Parkinson's. There could be any number of environmental differences between these two locations besides the TCE levels in the water.

The other issue is that there is an active class action lawsuit about this exact military base. When a study is published that directly reinforces the claims of one side of an active lawsuit, you always need to be cautious about taking it at face value. There could be some conflict of interest or even just sympathy from the scientists that introduces bias in their research methodology.

Re: Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease

#137

Post by coldtea »

criley2 wrote: post #62
coldtea wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never exchange the "devil you know", especially if it's natural and has been used for centuries by billions, for some novel lab-made crap, proprietary owned, and marketed to death. Not to mention when getting it has been the whole point of drinking coffee in the first place.

This is a rather explicit use of the Naturalistic Fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy

It's rather good advice, based on massive real-world empirical testing by billions for centuries (which would have uncovered statistically significant adverse issues way sooner), the Lindy effect, plus a basic understanding of profit motives and of the fast-track cavalier way lab-made substitutes get into the market.

Not to mention that the use of fallacy listings is the lowest form of argumentation (or, in any case, close).

Re: Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease

#138

Post by throwaway2037 »

Alex3917 wrote: post #11

> It inhibits complex 1, the leading enzyme in a chain of reactions that convert food to energy in cellular organelles called mitochondria. So they upside is that it probably significantly reduces your risk of both cancer and type 2 diabetes, which you're >100x more likely to die from than Parkinson's. There are even longevity bloggers, like Peter Attia, who advocate that everyone should be taking mitochondrial compl…

As I understand, Parkinson's does not kill you. NHS UK says: > Also: >

Ref: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/parkinsons-disease/

Re: Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease

#139

Post by justin66 »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #114
justin66 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that was generally phased out in the 70s Untrue.

I too was skeptical of the original post without any references. However, your post also did not provide references. Wiki isn't great, but here is what I found: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichloroethylene Fetal toxicity and concerns for carcinogenic potential of TCE led to its abandonment in developed countries by the 1980s. The use of trichloroethylene in the food and pharmaceutical industries has been banned in…

> However, your post also did not provide references.

I was calling out the lies, not doing other people's research for them.

People ought to understand that this stuff stays in the industrial pipeline for years (I'm avoiding the tangent that was brought to mind by another poster's mention of carbon tetrachloride...) and we are still in the process of simply classifying it according to its dangerousness. It's not close to being gone yet.

(it's not even banned in the EU yet, and I just assume that will happen well before it's banned here)

Re: Widely used chemical strongly linked to Parkinson’s disease

#140

Post by blevin »

horeszko wrote: post #73

>"But in the 20th century, TCE was used for many purposes, including making decaffeinated coffee" ... This is exactly the reason I never touched decaf coffee until I found Swiss water process (SWP) decaf. It never made sense to me to use hydrocarbon solvents in a food application

Would hexane be another example?
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