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Artists must be allowed to make bad work

austinkleon.com

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Re: Artists must be allowed to make bad work

#61

Post by js8 »

lucozade wrote: post #53
js8 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free market assumes that goods from different producers are substitutable. Da Vinci has, clearly, a monopoly on original items from Da Vinci. So if you're an artist and people value your name, regardless of the product it's written on, you don't have the OP's problem. The problem described only applies if the consumer can get some other art that gives them equivalent satisfaction.

> Free market assumes that goods from different producers are substitutable No it doesn't. A free market assumes that there are no constraining influences on trade except supply and demand. With the possible exception of a working contract law system. Free markets happily allow for people to make buying and selling decisions for any reason they choose. If it happens to be for a non-fungible asset, no matter how point…

OK, let's call it efficient market pressure in my original post, then.

Re: Artists must be allowed to make bad work

#62

Post by LudwigNagasena »

watwut wrote: post #59
RugnirViking wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you are behaving quite patronising to this guy for no reason. He is challenging the premise of the piece and you are telling him he is too stupid to read the piece at all. Do you not see the irony here? Commenters, too, should be allowed to have bad takes

Challenging the premise of the article based on reading only title while not really understanding the language the title is written on is not actually something praise worthy. If he is a.) not reading article and b.) not understanding normal and common English idiom, then pointing out he should stay away from the discussion is valid. And that is assuming it is genuine misunderstanding and not, like, typical nerdy "I…

I criticize the title because it says something vague piggybacking on the idea of freedom to guilt-trip its readers to support a controversial opinion that has barely anything to do with the title in question. And I can only learn the content by clicking on that clickbait title that provides no information.

Well, if it is common in English to refer to the situation when the public opinion about you is allegedly shaped by your last work as "not allowed to make bad work" than indeed I do not know English on the third level of OECD literacy. But that sounds like a very peculiar trait of English, and a very deep ideological commitment incorporated into the language on a level that I couldn't expect.

Re: Artists must be allowed to make bad work

#63

Post by pfannkuchen »

Visual art is overrated and misunderstood IMO. Artists of the past were basically human rendering engines, which was very important because we didn’t have any other kind of rendering engine and looking at artificial images can be pleasing.

Can you imagine what seeing a nice painting of a person was like when you had never seen any other kind of artificial image in your life besides handmade ones? It was probably mind blowing.

Photography has probably totally destroyed our relative reaction to visual art, like someone who eats way too much sugar trying a sweet apple.

But now we seem to be running on cultural fumes in this area. It’s as if people still bought hand cobbled shoes for millions of dollars and displayed them pretentiously.

Re: Artists must be allowed to make bad work

#64

Post by MichaelZuo »

pfannkuchen wrote: post #63

Visual art is overrated and misunderstood IMO. Artists of the past were basically human rendering engines, which was very important because we didn’t have any other kind of rendering engine and looking at artificial images can be pleasing. Can you imagine what seeing a nice painting of a person was like when you had never seen any other kind of artificial image in your life besides handmade ones? It was probably mind…

I don't believe classical style visual art is overrated. My local art gallery, the AGO, had a large exhibition on Caravaggio a few years ago and I remember seeing the shocked expressions on the majority of the visitors.

Re: Artists must be allowed to make bad work

#65

Post by FooBarBizBazz »

alentred wrote: post #5

I truly think of science and engineering, software development included, as an artistic feat in part. And we can easily see how the opinion expressed in this interview easily applies to what we do. Yes, we all have periods where we should be allowed to do bad work, learn on it and eventually come out with better ideas. Yes, the "public" pressure and the focus on novelty is there (right now on HN front page: https://n…

My thoughts exactly. OKR- and measurement-based management -- so ubiquitous as to be almost synonymous with "management" -- seem to accelerate certain short-term movement, at the cost of stagnation in the long term. Punctuated equilibrium is replaced by a whirling vortex.

Re: Artists must be allowed to make bad work

#66

Post by etrautmann »

pfannkuchen wrote: post #63

Visual art is overrated and misunderstood IMO. Artists of the past were basically human rendering engines, which was very important because we didn’t have any other kind of rendering engine and looking at artificial images can be pleasing. Can you imagine what seeing a nice painting of a person was like when you had never seen any other kind of artificial image in your life besides handmade ones? It was probably mind…

Lol no. It’s an interesting idea but photography didn’t kill the purpose of painting on the 1850’s, it just nudged human creativity into new dimensions of abstraction and images that were not attempts at rendering reality. There’s no end of history, and we’re certainly not sitting at the death of visual media. The drive for art, beauty, culture, and shared experience will continue. Creativity will meet that demand. Yes many of us have seen a lot and maybe can’t predict what for new creativity will take.

Re: Artists must be allowed to make bad work

#67

Post by esquivalience »

js8 wrote: post #61
lucozade wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Free market assumes that goods from different producers are substitutable No it doesn't. A free market assumes that there are no constraining influences on trade except supply and demand. With the possible exception of a working contract law system. Free markets happily allow for people to make buying and selling decisions for any reason they choose. If it happens to be for a non-fungible asset, no matter how point…

OK, let's call it efficient market pressure in my original post, then.

I'm interested in your comment about copyright being proposed for stability. Can you direct me to a source please? If you have a reference or a hint for further research, I'd like to read into it more.

Re: Artists must be allowed to make bad work

#68

Post by pfannkuchen »

MichaelZuo wrote: post #64
pfannkuchen wrote: post #63

Visual art is overrated and misunderstood IMO. Artists of the past were basically human rendering engines, which was very important because we didn’t have any other kind of rendering engine and looking at artificial images can be pleasing. Can you imagine what seeing a nice painting of a person was like when you had never seen any other kind of artificial image in your life besides handmade ones? It was probably mind…

I don't believe classical style visual art is overrated. My local art gallery, the AGO, had a large exhibition on Caravaggio a few years ago and I remember seeing the shocked expressions on the majority of the visitors.

There is social pressure to have this reaction to appear cultured, which is a bit of a confounder.

Not knocking the skill involved, being a high fidelity human rendering engine takes a lifetime of dedication as well as a base level of natural talent which very few possess.

Re: Artists must be allowed to make bad work

#69

Post by teddyh »

nohaydeprobleme wrote: post #60
jcarrano wrote: post #51

I thought this was already the case, considering most "art" is garbage anyways (well, 90% of everything, according to that rule). I do not thinks artist are "punished" more for making bad works, as much as they are loosing that extra "excess attention" that our media-high society gives them. Of course, if you put regular human beings on a pedestal and make an Idol of them then any minor misstep will be unforgivable.

Perhaps related, in software development there is the idea of the "Marimba Phenomenon" as first described in the Joel on Software blog [1], where the author observes that: "PR grows faster than the quality of your code. Result: everybody checks out your code, and it’s not good yet. These people will be permanently convinced that your code is simple and inadequate, even if you improve it drastically later. I call this…

Better link for “Marimba Phenomenon”: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/04/09/picking-a-ship-dat...

Re: Artists must be allowed to make bad work

#70

Post by dagw »

MichaelZuo wrote: post #64
pfannkuchen wrote: post #63

Visual art is overrated and misunderstood IMO. Artists of the past were basically human rendering engines, which was very important because we didn’t have any other kind of rendering engine and looking at artificial images can be pleasing. Can you imagine what seeing a nice painting of a person was like when you had never seen any other kind of artificial image in your life besides handmade ones? It was probably mind…

I don't believe classical style visual art is overrated. My local art gallery, the AGO, had a large exhibition on Caravaggio a few years ago and I remember seeing the shocked expressions on the majority of the visitors.

had a large exhibition on Caravaggio

What is interesting and telling is that they showed a 'name' like Caravaggio, and not any of the countless contemporary painters who are every bit is technically skilled as Caravaggio was, and perfectly capable of emulating his style. If the classical visual style was still relevant in itself, every art gallery would be showing off those contemporary artists.

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