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Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

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Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#141

Post by g4d »

flagrant_taco wrote: post #132
edumucelli wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is simply not true! Use of mechanical farming and fertilizers/pesticides can be beaten in productivity by permacultural practices. One example in France that has been followed by researches (and has produced several papers [1]) is the Ferme du Bec. It is able to produce multiple times more and more qualitative (organic), for the same area than the national average mechanized production in France. The pesticide i…

The real challenge here is that people simply don't want to farm anymore. We built ourselves a vicious cycle with mechanization and chemicals that allowed farms to produce more per acre, leading to fewer people farming and further dependence on oil and chemicals. Even worse, food systems are so centralized and complex that there's very little left to even pay the farmer by the time the rest of the supply chain makes…

You raise some crucial points regarding the challenges faced by farmers and the complexities of the modern food system. The mechanization and chemical-intensive practices that have boosted productivity per acre have inadvertently contributed to a decline in the number of people engaged in farming. This has led to increased dependence on external resources such as oil and chemicals, further entrenching the cycle.

The issue of centralized and complex food systems is also significant. As the supply chain becomes longer and more convoluted, the farmer often receives a diminishing share of the final price paid by consumers. This creates financial strain and makes it difficult for farmers to earn a sustainable income.

Promoting local food production can indeed help mitigate some of these challenges. By reducing the steps between the farm and the end consumer, local food systems can create opportunities for farmers to receive a more equitable share of the value generated. However, as you mentioned, even with local production, there may still be limitations in overcoming the underlying financial pressures.

The example you shared about the farmer's income compared to the minimum wage highlights the stark reality faced by many agricultural workers. Working long hours and taking on the risks associated with farming, while earning less than the minimum wage, is not a sustainable situation. It's important for society to recognize the immense value farmers provide and ensure fair compensation for their hard work.

To address these challenges, a comprehensive approach is needed. This includes supporting policies that promote sustainable agriculture, fostering local food systems, and advocating for fair pricing and compensation for farmers. Additionally, exploring alternative models such as community-supported agriculture and direct-to-consumer sales can help create a more viable and rewarding environment for farmers.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#142

Post by biorach »

jgraham wrote: post #60
tfourb wrote: post #3

There are also quite convincing studies that show even worse declines for insect populations, again mostly due to industrialized farming techniques and the widespread use of chemical fertilizers and pesticides. The standard approach in the EU to work against this really worrying trend is to a) bring more and more land under some form of protection and remove it from agricultural production and b) increase the share o…

> There are also quite convincing studies that show even worse declines for insect populations, again mostly due to industrialized farming techniques and the widespread use of chemical fertilizers and pesticides Yes e.g [0]. Neonicitinoids in particular are basically nerve agents for insects that we wantonly spread all over their habitat, and which turn out to not remain localised on crops, but spread through runoff,…

Refreshing to see a well researched comment, with appropriate citations that expresses well the complexity of the situation and the tradeoffs involved. This subject matter attracts a lot of cranks and simplistic non- solutions, so thanks.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#143

Post by flagrant_taco »

zmgsabst wrote: post #38
mkmk3 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard that permacultural practices can compete in terms of output, it's just harder to industrialize. I wonder if improvements in robotics could make this sort of approach more feasible, or if it really is comparatively productive in any case

Maybe we could do three good things at once: - switch to this better method of farming - end the corporate oligarchy controlling food by having smaller farms - shift people out of net negative “services” into farming I don’t see the downfall of industrial farming as a bad thing — they’re a whole problem all on their own (including the recent push to take away family farms from the Dutch).

How might this be implemented without ceasing am even more powerful government along the way?

The changes sounds reasonable enough but it sounds like it's take the government to force new farming methods on us, break up corporations, and force people to leave their current jobs and lives to work land elsewhere.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#144

Post by immibis »

tfourb wrote: post #3

There are also quite convincing studies that show even worse declines for insect populations, again mostly due to industrialized farming techniques and the widespread use of chemical fertilizers and pesticides. The standard approach in the EU to work against this really worrying trend is to a) bring more and more land under some form of protection and remove it from agricultural production and b) increase the share o…

It is simply not possible to produce food for 8 billion people without destroying the planet.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#145

Post by immibis »

Veen wrote: post #75
kuschku wrote: post #22

This is why all those "don't have outdoor cats, they kill all the birds" stories annoy me. At best they're misguided, at worse they're intentionally misleading to hide the fact that pesticides and farming practices are actually at fault. (In Europe, on other continents the story may be different) Similar to the CO2 footprint, it's another way to individualize social issues and distract from large corporate sources of…

Is this a U.S. thing? Where I live—a rural part of the UK—I don't think anyone thinks twice about letting their cats out. It's just what you do with cats.

It's an environmentally conscious person thing. Most people in most countries don't think twice about having cats or letting them out - even though they kill birds.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#146

Post by HeckFeck »

kuschku wrote: post #123
HeckFeck wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can't discount the effect of the increase in cat ownership and roaming: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/14/cats-kil... "A study published in April estimated that UK cats kill 160 to 270 million animals annually, a quarter of them birds. The real figure is likely to be even higher, as the study used the 2011 pet cat population of 9.5 million; it is now closer to 12 million, boosted by the pandemic…

Quoting your own linked article: The UK’s largest bird charity, the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (RSPB), is not particularly concerned about the impact of cats on the British mainland. Instead it focuses on what it says is driving UK bird declines: global warming, intensive agriculture and expanding towns and cities leading to habitat and food loss. “While we know that cats do kill large numbers of birds…

I agree that the environmental changes are affecting birdlife as well.

But even taking the lower end of the estimate of the number killed by cats, 40 million birds each year is a felt loss. The RSPB may opine as they wish, but that's the data.

Anecdotally, my neighbour's cat is known to bring home as many as three birds on some weeks. I've seen them stalk my bird table using the bushes as cover. Data + eyewitness observation makes a compelling case.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#147

Post by bryanlarsen »

Probably the most exciting future technology is precision fermentation.

We use massive amounts of land to grow monocultures because that's the cheapest way to produce food.

We're in a conundrum: more expensive food would cause mass suffering. OTOH, our current food production methods are destructive, and cause mass suffering.

A cheaper method to produce food that uses a lot less land and resources would be a game changer.

Enter precision fermentation:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/nov/24/green-...

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#148

Post by flagrant_taco »

Scarblac wrote: post #25
tfourb wrote: post #3

There are also quite convincing studies that show even worse declines for insect populations, again mostly due to industrialized farming techniques and the widespread use of chemical fertilizers and pesticides. The standard approach in the EU to work against this really worrying trend is to a) bring more and more land under some form of protection and remove it from agricultural production and b) increase the share o…

And eating less meat, so we can do with less agricultural production.

This goes against so many basic principles of human dietary needs and sustainable agricultural practices.

The problems that frequently lead to the argument for cutting meat consumption for ecological reasons are all actually concerns with industrialized meat production practices, not with meat production itself. We don't need to cut meat production, we need to change how we raise, process, and distribute the meat. Raise thousands of cows in concrete pens in a remote area will always require too many inputs and produce too many unwanted outputs because it's not part of a larger ecosystem.

Ruminants like cows and sheep play a vital role in managing pasture and creating fertilizer. Chickens play a vital role in pest management and creating compost. Chickens and hogs both play a role in making productive use of waste products, eating food scraps and garden waste that would otherwise be lost.

Heck, we couldn't even have egg and milk production at all without producing meat or culling animals along the way. Only 50% of eggs hatched are female, we have to do something with the males. And dairy cows will only produce milk for 6-12 months after giving birth, meaning there are calves that need to play a part in the system as well.

That doesn't even get to the challenges of trying to raise crops without animal byproducts. Where does all the fertilizer come from?

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#149

Post by wiredfool »

bainsfather wrote: post #113
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is plainly not accurate - manure from most aninals, especially pig farms, is a hazardous easte to dispose of. Only a small percentage of manure is reused as fertiliser because transporting it is expensive, and messy. Often it needs to be processed before it can be used safely. You can gooogle 'industrial farm US' and see pictures of ani als standing knee deep in their own poop. Also it is illegal to take photos…

None of our animals' waste is any hazard to you, unless you slip on it! You are right that it can be done badly, as can many other things. I'd say you are actually arguing against badly regulated animal farming (especially since you mention the US), rather than animal farming per se.

Hydrogen sulfide is a common killer of farmers in Ireland.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#150

Post by kuschku »

HeckFeck wrote: post #146
kuschku wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoting your own linked article: The UK’s largest bird charity, the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (RSPB), is not particularly concerned about the impact of cats on the British mainland. Instead it focuses on what it says is driving UK bird declines: global warming, intensive agriculture and expanding towns and cities leading to habitat and food loss. “While we know that cats do kill large numbers of birds…

I agree that the environmental changes are affecting birdlife as well. But even taking the lower end of the estimate of the number killed by cats, 40 million birds each year is a felt loss. The RSPB may opine as they wish, but that's the data. Anecdotally, my neighbour's cat is known to bring home as many as three birds on some weeks. I've seen them stalk my bird table using the bushes as cover. Data + eyewitness obs…

If you read the article, they actually argue that the cats don't really have an effect because those 40 million birds are usually of species that aren't endangered and are usually birds that otherwise wouldn't have made it anyway.

Though 40 million dead birds sounds like a lot, in regions where wildlife had millenia to adapt to cats' existence – in continental Europe cats have existed for tenthousands of years – it’s not a significant issue.

And it's sad that so much time and energy is wasted on this discussion when people are still spraying their own backyards with pesticides and destroying "weeds", which are actually necessary for insects, and as result birds, to thrive.

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