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Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

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Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#131

Post by orwin »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #82
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why the West has such ossified systems. If you propose any systemic change, people dont actually evaluate the suggestion on it's merits. They just go China/communism!

The proposition is to expropriate landowners (sorry the “corporate oligarchy”), force people to move to farming and rationalise production methods with a top-down approach. The comparaison to the Great Leap Forward is not far fetched. I think it’s legitimate to point to disastrous precedent when people suggest things.

Rural landowners who didn't had a marketable crop/produce (wine) already got expropriated, and their land already incorporate 'rationalized' ag. I know of 6 person in my mother's village who killed themselves between the 80s and late 90s, because of 'revolver' credits (aptly renamed), and tbf the rest of their family (4 different families) got it worse imho, until the state swoopt in and forgave the debt. I think only one independent farmer still exist in the area, his wife work at the local post office/bank, so they probably were more difficult targets.

It's not the great leap forward, it's the small choking of those left behind.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#132

Post by flagrant_taco »

edumucelli wrote: post #96
tfourb wrote: post #3

There are also quite convincing studies that show even worse declines for insect populations, again mostly due to industrialized farming techniques and the widespread use of chemical fertilizers and pesticides. The standard approach in the EU to work against this really worrying trend is to a) bring more and more land under some form of protection and remove it from agricultural production and b) increase the share o…

That is simply not true! Use of mechanical farming and fertilizers/pesticides can be beaten in productivity by permacultural practices. One example in France that has been followed by researches (and has produced several papers [1]) is the Ferme du Bec. It is able to produce multiple times more and more qualitative (organic), for the same area than the national average mechanized production in France. The pesticide i…

The real challenge here is that people simply don't want to farm anymore. We built ourselves a vicious cycle with mechanization and chemicals that allowed farms to produce more per acre, leading to fewer people farming and further dependence on oil and chemicals. Even worse, food systems are so centralized and complex that there's very little left to even pay the farmer by the time the rest of the supply chain makes it's cut.

Local food production may go a long way as it reduces the steps between the farm and the end consumer. That still may not be enough though, rewiring higher food prices regardless of how it's produced.

In one of the linked studied the result was that one person working 43 hours per week could profit €900-1600 per month. The same article mentions a minimum wage of €9.61/hour, so even on the high end the farmer is working all that time and owning the risk of a bad harvest to make less than minimum wage. They didn't mention any holdback on the crops to feed the farmer, so they might be separately paying for food out of that income. People just aren't going to do that in large numbers unless they have to.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#133

Post by orwin »

pvaldes wrote: post #73
Scarblac wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And eating less meat, so we can do with less agricultural production.

The big plot hole in this master plan that many people apparently can't see or accept. If we remove the production of meat, this will severely harm the production of vegetables. They are connected. You can't have real agriculture without manure. Fossil guano is a finite, scarce and very expensive resource, and human manure is not so desirable as replacement by several reasons so, how do they expect to feed their gree…

You can't use manure of industrial farms in the fields, too much chemical compounds that can destroy your soil, killing fungi and bacterial life.

I think in my area they try to use manure to produce methane.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#134

Post by shellac »

hug wrote: post #45
shellac wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are also quite convincing studies that show even worse declines for insect populations Has the evidence improved recently? About 3 years ago there were a few papers, including a meta analysis (-ish), which were suggestive but also noted the lack of longitudinal studies, and their lack of geographical diversity (Germany and UK as I recall). The consensus was that everyone was certain there was a serious issue,…

While not particularly useful as a scientific method, and obviously not attempting to counter your broader point asking for more detailed analysis, there’s incredibly compelling evidence: Go for a 100 mile drive at night, and count the bugs on your windshield. Ask your parents about it. Ask every 70 year old you know. Bugs are in decline. There’s absolutely no lack of evidence. We know it’s real. We just haven’t cata…

Ironically I removed my mention of the windscreen evidence. There are some citizen science surveys documenting the decline (e.g. a UK study found a 60% decline over 20 years, or something like that). But it's a good example of a strong indicator but not the greatest quality evidence - geographically limited, concerns low flying population only, might be confounded by changes in car aerodynamics, verge / hedgerow maintenance etc.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#135

Post by flagrant_taco »

tommek4077 wrote: post #64
ummonk wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they meant competitive in land yields, not prices.

If I need 50 workers instead of 1, I can't compete.

Doesn't that just depend on whether income can pay for the 50 employees, and that you can find 50 people willing to work the job?

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#136

Post by psychoslave »

tommek4077 wrote: post #64
ummonk wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they meant competitive in land yields, not prices.

If I need 50 workers instead of 1, I can't compete.

This is framing premises so that only this conclusion appear relevant.

It's not a predefined unavoidable destiny that is to go through, that is all about what policies are chose with which agenda in mind.

Unemployment didn't reach 0% anywhere last time I checked, and as it was already mentioned, no actor out there is playing without some public subsidiaries.

This is all political decisions. Local short term optimisation of plutocrate revenues is one possibility. Perennial national sustainability is an other one. These two agendas however probably don't overlap much.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#137

Post by biorach »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #92
pvaldes wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big plot hole in this master plan that many people apparently can't see or accept. If we remove the production of meat, this will severely harm the production of vegetables. They are connected. You can't have real agriculture without manure. Fossil guano is a finite, scarce and very expensive resource, and human manure is not so desirable as replacement by several reasons so, how do they expect to feed their gree…

This is plainly not accurate - manure from most aninals, especially pig farms, is a hazardous easte to dispose of. Only a small percentage of manure is reused as fertiliser because transporting it is expensive, and messy. Often it needs to be processed before it can be used safely. You can gooogle 'industrial farm US' and see pictures of ani als standing knee deep in their own poop. Also it is illegal to take photos…

> manure from most aninals, especially pig farms, is a hazardous easte to dispose of. Only a small percentage of manure is reused as fertiliser because transporting it is expensive, and messy

You'd need to cite some sources for that. And explain where the millions of tons of animal manure go.

Here in Northern Europe 100% of manure from housed animals is used, either spread as manure or, increasingly, used for biomethane

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#138

Post by supriyo-biswas »

boredhedgehog wrote: post #89

Why should I care about animals that have no use for me? Stories about wolves, bears, and now birds and insects, seem to presume that I feel some automatic emotional connection to them, or that there's some self-evident moral argument why they need to kept alive. I won't deny that they have some intrinsic value, but if there are competing interests and hidden costs, that value really needs to be put into perspective.

Because birds and insects act as pollinators. Replicating natural, biological processes like that are difficult to replicate and most easily done by letting the natural process do its thing.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#139

Post by biorach »

orwin wrote: post #133
pvaldes wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big plot hole in this master plan that many people apparently can't see or accept. If we remove the production of meat, this will severely harm the production of vegetables. They are connected. You can't have real agriculture without manure. Fossil guano is a finite, scarce and very expensive resource, and human manure is not so desirable as replacement by several reasons so, how do they expect to feed their gree…

You can't use manure of industrial farms in the fields, too much chemical compounds that can destroy your soil, killing fungi and bacterial life. I think in my area they try to use manure to produce methane.

> You can't use manure of industrial farms in the fields, too much chemical compounds that can destroy your soil, killing fungi and bacterial life

Source? Preferably reputable

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#140

Post by biorach »

cjrp wrote: post #90
tfourb wrote: post #3

There are also quite convincing studies that show even worse declines for insect populations, again mostly due to industrialized farming techniques and the widespread use of chemical fertilizers and pesticides. The standard approach in the EU to work against this really worrying trend is to a) bring more and more land under some form of protection and remove it from agricultural production and b) increase the share o…

> increase the share of eco-farming, i.e. conventional farming without the chemistry. The problem: both approaches drastically reduce agricultural productivity. A prime example, the seed-dressing used to treat rapeseed and prevent cabbage-stem flea beetle from destroying the crop has been outlawed in the EU. Most farmers now won't grow rapeseed, because the risk of making a huge financial loss is too high. Result? We…

> Most farmers now won't grow rapeseed,

In the EU? I think you just made that up

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