EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona • Hacker News Board

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#281

Post by jjeaff » Tue, May 16, 2023, 10:27 AM UTC

1827163 wrote: post #253

usernew wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly gotta ask. Why is it that half the planet commenting on young sex with very strong, very critical opinions, keeps confusing the age of consent with the age you're allowed to vote? On 99% of the planet, if a 17yo acts like, and is willing to screw your brains out, you're good to go and quite legal. In fact, same for a 16yo. In fact, on half the planet including a large portion stateside, that works for 15 t…

This is so true. The "morality" when it comes to sex, is thinly disguised religious dogma, that has been passed down the generations unquestioned. A 17 year old is absolutely capable of consent. However I feel if she has been manipulated in any way then it should be illegal.

It's quite the opposite. Religious dogma is quite comfortable with young women marrying old men and sleeping with them.

It is modern morality with out better understanding of psychology and brain development that lead many people to believe that sex in extreme age differences and extreme power imbalances is fraught. And in many cases, immoral. Regardless of whether the young person is a day under or a day over the "age of consent".

I would posit that cases where a 17 year old is sleeping with a 55 year old and it is NOT due to some form of coercion, are extremely rare.

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#282

Post by inglor_cz » Tue, May 16, 2023, 10:28 AM UTC

jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #277

inglor_cz wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really feels like a new Victorian age is upon us. Not only are you allowed to show an ankle under your skirt, even talking about female legs is frowned upon. The similarities go deeper than that. A mostly-uncontested empire (then, British, now, American) produced a leisure class that does not really have anything better to do than play zero-sum Moral Olympic Games. Which also means that the only way out is in incr…

We're talking about sexual exploitation of minors and you're trying to cast this as victorian prudism? Seriously?

I wouldn't have a problem with disinviting anyone who actually did exploit minors, such as Polansky.

What bothers me is the übersensitivity over a leaked e-mail from a private group. Weird people like Stallman can be expected to express weird opinions in their e-mails. Repression of weirdness can result in worse societal results than its expression.

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#283

Post by prepend » Tue, May 16, 2023, 10:55 AM UTC

jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #259

rayiner wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You’re right, that is a misquote. But what he actually wrote honestly wasn’t that much better. “Much better” in what sense? I think Minsky is guilty because using sex workers is categorically immoral. But most on HN don’t agree with me, and think that it would’ve been no problem had Virginia Giuffre been 18 and willing. In that case, doesn’t Minsky’s moral culpability turn on whether he knew Giuffre was 17 and unwi…

You're a middle aged man on a private island and a teenage girl suddenly wants to have sex with you. Is this natural or a cause for concern? Pretty clear choice here, and pretty clear how many people here are taking the other side while trying to obscure that they know exactly what they're actually standing up for. RMS comments are so egregious exactly because "she acted like she wanted it" is not an excuse for such…

> You're a middle aged man on a private island and a teenage girl suddenly wants to have sex with you. Is this natural or a cause for concern?

Many people are comfortable and support prostitution. I don’t morally support prostitution but won’t condemn others for consuming prostitution where the sex workers was compelled or morally harmed in doing her work (eg, human traficked, blackmail, unfair revenue share, underage, etc etc).

Obviously if you’re on an island and some teenage girl wants to have sex with an old man, something is up. But it’s not beyond imagination that the answer is prostitution and not only explained by compelled, unwilling human trafficking.

But I feel like we spend too much time circling here. RMS was just commenting on logical explanations for what has happened. I’m not trying to judge Minsky’s actions but RMS’s quote where he did not say that Guiffre was willing and “sources” misquote the mailing list.

To me, it seems RMS is clearly saying that Minsky thought that Guiffre was willing, not that she actually was. RMS was saying that Guiffre was likely instructed to pretend to be willing, not that she actually was. The language isn’t confusing or obtuse, it’s just quotes incorrectly.

I think if someone is misquoting they are dull or have ill intent. I don’t think it’s right to misquote to support your point. It’s wrong and wastes time correcting the quote rather than arguing the point.

If someone wants to argue Minsky was wrong to sleep with a 17 year old, then do so. But conflating RMS with Minsky’s actions, especially years afterwards is a separate issue. Id expect more from programmers and logical thinkers working to build and promote the use of free/open source software.

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#284

Post by flappyeagle » Tue, May 16, 2023, 10:56 AM UTC

asdfman123 wrote: post #185

myshpa wrote: post #145

"The original Remove Richard Stallman post contained leaked communications from a private mailing list. In it, the author quotes an email from Stallman where he explains that Marvin Minsky likely wouldn’t have known that the woman on Jeffrey Epstein’s island was coerced: …the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had…

You’re right, that is a misquote. But what he actually wrote honestly wasn’t that much better. The problem with a lot of these sorts things is intentionally making yourself blind to the emotional impact, pretending not to know, when some part of you does understand what you’re doing. It’s all just plausible deniability. We get it quite clearly, we don’t need it explained to us. You might say this is tone policing but…

You didn’t finish the sentence: “what he says (about the subject that he’s the leader of) matters”

What he says about other things probably doesn't matter as much

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#285

Post by irthomasthomas » Tue, May 16, 2023, 10:59 AM UTC

myshpa wrote: post #145

"The original Remove Richard Stallman post contained leaked communications from a private mailing list. In it, the author quotes an email from Stallman where he explains that Marvin Minsky likely wouldn’t have known that the woman on Jeffrey Epstein’s island was coerced: …the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had…

At least we can link to this thread, now, whenever any one asks if cancel-culture is even a real thing.

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#286

Post by prepend » Tue, May 16, 2023, 10:59 AM UTC

jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #276

sph wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Categorically immoral, really? Utter nonsense. Morality is a cultural construct, that radically changes over time. Whoever thinks otherwise is simply ignorant there is a wider world outside their reality bubble.

I think "don't have sex with teenagers if you're a middle aged man" is pretty far from some sort of categorical dilemma.

It’s not in the sense that it’s currently legal in every US state to have sex with teenagers (18 and 19). So I don’t think it’s a categorical dilemma in that the entire US legally allows it. And laws are based on morals, etc etc.

And then there are states and countries with even lower legal ages.

Just because I think it’s skeevy, doesn’t mean society is settled on it.

Take a look at strip clubs and professional porn and you’ll find tons of 18 year olds being salivated on by middle aged men (and I suppose middle aged people of all genders, but mostly men).

I recently read the bio of sex actress Sasha Grey who started making porn days after her 18th birthday and won industry awards and Hollywood fame as a teenager.

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#287

Post by prepend » Tue, May 16, 2023, 11:08 AM UTC

seized wrote: post #218

skissane wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is very controversial, even if he backpedalled (only after it resurfaced and created a lot of controversy). He said he didn’t understand the issue and talking to abuse survivors helped him understand it better, and that led to him changing his view. To me, that sounds like a person simply updating their views in response to new evidence-new to them even if much older to many others. Labelling it as “back-pedalling”…

> To me, that sounds like a person simply updating their views in response to new evidence-new to them even if much older to many others. Labelling it as “back-pedalling” seems to me to be needlessly uncharitable to him > It might be hard to understand why it took him so long to realise this-but I think you have to understand he occupies a very different position in society from most people, with the result he is oft…

So if someone has a thought that is wrong, they can never reconsider and correct the thought. Is there no redemption?

Obama once said that gay marriage is wrong [0]. I have always thought gay marriage is correct and a fundamental right. Does that mean that Obama can never be redeemed for his earlier incorrect thoughts and beliefs. Is he doomed to be judged forever based on his egregious historical beliefs?

What do you think someone needs to do for redemption?

[0] “Marriage is between a man and a woman,” on not supporting gay marriage but only civil unions https://time.com/3816952/obama-gay-lesbian-transgender-lgbt-...

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#288

Post by prepend » Tue, May 16, 2023, 11:22 AM UTC

mardifoufs wrote: post #101

pfannkuchen wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is he talking about pre or post puberty? The term pedophilia sometimes lumps both together. Pre seems quite unnatural, or at least there is no obvious natural mechanism that would make it normal or beneficial. Post is a cultural matter, since age of marriage has fluctuated a lot over time. Discussing post seems reasonably defensible, discussing pre immensely less so.

Personally I don't think the distinction matters (both are bad), but even then he also doesn't seem to make the distinction. Here is another quote [to be clear, I don't disagree with the first two lol]: Prostitution, adultery, necrophilia, bestiality, possession of child pornography, and even incest and pedophilia ... should be legal as long as no one is coerced. They are illegal only because of prejudice and narrowm…

The distinction matters in many countries.

In the US, Alaska, Hawaii and dozens of other states have the age of consent at 16 [0] and many countries [1] (Germany at 14, holy smokes. China at 15. And South Korea st 20, good on them).

So while you don’t think the distinction matters, billions of people do think it matters. If you have such beliefs in this matter then you hold the majority of the world as perverts who think “child sex” is appropriate and legal. That’s a rough way to go through the world thinking that you are superior to so many people who are egregiously wrong.

[0] https://aspe.hhs.gov/reports/statutory-rape-guide-state-laws... [1] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/age-of-co...

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#289

Post by prepend » Tue, May 16, 2023, 11:25 AM UTC

anonymouskimmer wrote: post #240

matt-attack wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both are bad? So it just so happens that the current threshold for post-pubescents (18 years old) happens to align with what you believe to be the only moral value? So all those other states, countries and provinces throughout history which have adopted slightly different cutoffs (and therefor state-sanctioned pedophilia by your definition) were just morally bankrupt and evil? So 17 is wrong? So 16 is wrong? 15 is wr…

I'm not the person you're responding to. The "age rule" [1] about dating is that the younger person is at least half the age of the older person plus 7 years. This implies that it's okay for a 20 year old to date a 17 year old, but not a 21 year old (unless the 17 year old is 17 and a half). It's a kind of silly rule, but has some purpose in terms of "ickyness" (edit: and equivalent maturity) when applied to people i…

This is a silly rule as a 40 year old marrying a 20 year old breaks the rule and there are many situations where this can be explained. And it’s legal everywhere. This rule isn’t a rule at all as a heuristic to use at dinner parties to be snooty about rich people and trophy wives (they are almost always rich old men with young women exchanging their youth and beauty for wealth. It’s icky, but I think everyone understands Anna Nicole Smith’s reasons).

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#290

Post by unconed » Tue, May 16, 2023, 11:27 AM UTC

Everyone always talks about stallman, nobody talks about the fact that the woman who wrote that medium post has all the signs of being an equally difficult to bear sperg (obsessive thoughts, noise sensitivity, punctuality/time focused, disgust at the idea of being touched, etc)

It is really underappreciated how many female autists go unnoticed, even by themselves. They just freak out about all the other nerds' autism in a seemingly prosocial way. This explains an unreasonably large chunk of internet culture war.

https://acko.net/blog/on-sperging-out/