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Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

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Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#11

Post by anonylizard »

ggm wrote: post #10

My advice, (for what it's worth) is to value liberal-arts degree holders far higher than I find many engineers do: People misplace trust in the hard science side of study and neglect what the humanities can bring to the workforce. I value their input more and more highly. Oh, and I value the input from Lawyers too. I might discount it, but I listen. (late stage career, moving out. Not as late as Vint. I can't afford…

Oh, liberal arts is valuable, but the degree isn't.

I've seen plenty of programmers who are very educated in history, philosophy, economics etc.

The problem with the actual degree.

1. Liberal arts degrees have terrible economic returns, almost always negative, especially for men. Because...

2. Liberal arts is ill-suited for mass-market higher education. Can you really teach liberal arts with underpaid teach assistants grading essays on strict rubrics?

3. The degree introduces indoctrination. When you have to please the professor, when your opinions have to please your employer, you end up self censoring, initially consciously, eventually subconsciously, and transform into a drone, incapable of original and piercing thoughts. That's lethal when the whole selling point of the degree was to produce 'original thinking'.

When you have an otherwise normal job, you are free to think, not needing to please anyone else, but your own judgement and conscience.

Indeed, I find it extremely questionable, why a liberal arts degree is needed at all in the age of the internet. I obsessively read over history, and its extremely cheap and available online, full of endless high quality material, perspectives. And because its free, its a lifelong hobby with no monetary investment, and its pure fun and no downside.

Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#12

Post by totetsu »

anonylizard wrote: post #11
ggm wrote: post #10

My advice, (for what it's worth) is to value liberal-arts degree holders far higher than I find many engineers do: People misplace trust in the hard science side of study and neglect what the humanities can bring to the workforce. I value their input more and more highly. Oh, and I value the input from Lawyers too. I might discount it, but I listen. (late stage career, moving out. Not as late as Vint. I can't afford…

Oh, liberal arts is valuable, but the degree isn't. I've seen plenty of programmers who are very educated in history, philosophy, economics etc. The problem with the actual degree. 1. Liberal arts degrees have terrible economic returns, almost always negative, especially for men. Because... 2. Liberal arts is ill-suited for mass-market higher education. Can you really teach liberal arts with underpaid teach assistant…

I disagree with point 3 there. A well taught arts education requires you to use critical reasoning to make sure what you are writing or arguing for can be supported by sound arguments. Maybe you have some experience with some institution or department where there were individuals who only accepted work from their students that argued for the views that agreed with, but this not my experience at all.

Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#14

Post by andromeduck »

sgtnoodle wrote: post #7
gundmc wrote: post #2

I appreciate the sentiment of "You can learn something from virtually everybody," but the anecdote doesn't exactly prove it out. Fun story though!

There's a man named Chuck Hutchins who pioneered computer numerical control machining over many decades. He started his career as the first bonafide engineer at a machine tool manufacturing company. He took the job even though the salary was lower than his other offers; the deal was that he got to shadow every other employee in the company for a week each, from the shop floor to management. He is quite old now, but h…

Wish there was an audiobook!

Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#16

Post by FredPret »

totetsu wrote: post #12
anonylizard wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, liberal arts is valuable, but the degree isn't. I've seen plenty of programmers who are very educated in history, philosophy, economics etc. The problem with the actual degree. 1. Liberal arts degrees have terrible economic returns, almost always negative, especially for men. Because... 2. Liberal arts is ill-suited for mass-market higher education. Can you really teach liberal arts with underpaid teach assistant…

I disagree with point 3 there. A well taught arts education requires you to use critical reasoning to make sure what you are writing or arguing for can be supported by sound arguments. Maybe you have some experience with some institution or department where there were individuals who only accepted work from their students that argued for the views that agreed with, but this not my experience at all.

Then most liberal arts educations are not well-taught. Look at the uniform political slant of everything coming out of the liberal arts sphere in the past 50+ years.

There's a ton of value in a good liberal arts education, but I agree with anonylizard that this is not something that can be taught en masse.

Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#17

Post by karpierz »

anonylizard wrote: post #11
ggm wrote: post #10

My advice, (for what it's worth) is to value liberal-arts degree holders far higher than I find many engineers do: People misplace trust in the hard science side of study and neglect what the humanities can bring to the workforce. I value their input more and more highly. Oh, and I value the input from Lawyers too. I might discount it, but I listen. (late stage career, moving out. Not as late as Vint. I can't afford…

Oh, liberal arts is valuable, but the degree isn't. I've seen plenty of programmers who are very educated in history, philosophy, economics etc. The problem with the actual degree. 1. Liberal arts degrees have terrible economic returns, almost always negative, especially for men. Because... 2. Liberal arts is ill-suited for mass-market higher education. Can you really teach liberal arts with underpaid teach assistant…

> I've seen plenty of programmers who are very educated in history, philosophy, economics etc.

I've seen plenty of programmers who think they're well educated in history, philosophy, economics, etc. But actually being educated is rare. Much easier to read stuff like "Guns, Germs, and Steel" uncritically and just quote it at people.

Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#19

Post by stakhanov »

> I tell my engineers that if they know I’m about to do something stupid, they have to tell me, so I don’t do it.

My career advice: If your boss tells you to not be afraid to disagree with them, don't do it. It's a trap. I've been suckered into this one numerous times, and there was not a single occasion where it didn't backfire. People like to think of themselves as being that enlightened, but rarely (in my personal experience: never) are.

Re: Vint Cerf’s career advice for engineers

#20

Post by emodendroket »

stakhanov wrote: post #19

> I tell my engineers that if they know I’m about to do something stupid, they have to tell me, so I don’t do it. My career advice: If your boss tells you to not be afraid to disagree with them, don't do it. It's a trap. I've been suckered into this one numerous times, and there was not a single occasion where it didn't backfire. People like to think of themselves as being that enlightened, but rarely (in my personal…

I think it depends a lot on your approach. Raising some concerns in a one-on-one and allowing them to change course or not will go over better than just shooting their idea down in a big meeting with many people.
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