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EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

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Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#171

Post by jasonwatkinspdx »

pen2l wrote: post #157
jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

We talk about inclusivity here all the time, but what about being inclusive of neuroatypical folks who have quirks that don't come off as being polished and PC in current social code du jour? This all so so grates on me because it means we are wasting all this time and energy on things that don't matter all the while the real monsters of society go unchecked because with their psychopathic streak they know how to pla…

There is nothing about neurodiversity that requires tolerating apologetics for peadophilia.

As a child sexual abuse victim myself I assure you, this matters far far more than RMS making another one of his stump speeches.

He played an important role in software yes. He also burned his reputation purely through his own choices and convictions, not any mental condition. He can fade away and the computing world will be just fine.

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#172

Post by userbinator »

pen2l wrote: post #157
jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

We talk about inclusivity here all the time, but what about being inclusive of neuroatypical folks who have quirks that don't come off as being polished and PC in current social code du jour? This all so so grates on me because it means we are wasting all this time and energy on things that don't matter all the while the real monsters of society go unchecked because with their psychopathic streak they know how to pla…

[flagged]

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#173

Post by blagie »

scythe wrote: post #166
jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

>Stallman's poor behavior over the years could fill a bookcase if written down. If that's true, then you can write informatively rather than with hand-waving. >the narrow contrived defense you're making here. The argument above is specific and detailed, not "contrived".

> If that's true, then you can write informatively rather than with hand-waving.

He is neuro-atypical in some not-well-defined way. His behavior is perceived as anti-social by the typical person who interacts with him. He's pushy, abrasive, and doesn't follow American mainstream social norms.

He also has real enemies (douchebags like ESR who tried to steal credit for his work), who up-play this. You'll see attacks on TMI or personal hygiene.

He's also brilliant, devoted his life to making the world a better place, and was largely successful.

I had a lot more respect for EPFL before this.

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#174

Post by bawolff »

Manuel_D wrote: post #156
jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Then condemn him for the things he actually said or did (and I agree, there are valid reasons to distance oneself from him), not on account of misinformation.

While i agree in principle, in practise it is very human nature that once someone does enouh questionable things people will stop rushing to that person's defense, and it starts to matter much less if the current thing is true. It is sort of reverse boy who cried wolf.

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#175

Post by serf »

verbify wrote: post #80
VagueMag wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stallman made some remarks defending Marvin Minsky (very poorly) from victims' allegations that he abused young girls on Epstein's island. Meanwhile, Reid Hoffman is now known to have visited the island and has not seen any firestorm of cancellations, as far as I'm aware.

Stallman's comments can be verified. However we have no idea what Reid Hoffman saw or did on the island - he had plausible deniability. Therefore Stallman can face social consequences for his actions (without exposing EPFL to a defamation lawsuit), that is much harder with Reid Hoffman.

>Stallman's comments can be verified. However we have no idea what Reid Hoffman saw or did on the island

we are comparing two people: one participated, and one was giving a personal opinion about the participation.

here's my question. why are we pretending as if these two offenses are equal?

An opinion can be changed, an action cannot.

the plausible deniability factor of acting deaf and blind to a situation that surrounds you is paper-thin.

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#176

Post by arp242 »

ianburrell wrote: post #138
arp242 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does "associate with" mean in this context? As in, what does it mean concretely? Genuine question. I've had friends ("associated with") that had criminal histories, some of them even quite severe. Of course, I took no part in those crimes, and I don't think anyone here would hold having friends with criminal histories against me.

Gates met with Epstein repeatedly, in-person. He visited Epstein's home, he flew on Epstein's jet, they about Gates Foundation deal. Gates knew Epstein from earlier so likely would have known about the conviction. Also, it sounds like relationship soured in 2014.

That's all very superficial though; "flew on Epstein's jet" can mean anything from "let's discuss my donations to your foundation while we're travelling from A to B" to less savoury things.

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#177

Post by brickteacup »

pen2l wrote: post #157
jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

We talk about inclusivity here all the time, but what about being inclusive of neuroatypical folks who have quirks that don't come off as being polished and PC in current social code du jour? This all so so grates on me because it means we are wasting all this time and energy on things that don't matter all the while the real monsters of society go unchecked because with their psychopathic streak they know how to pla…

[flagged]

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#178

Post by scythe »

kenjackson wrote: post #100
marcodiego wrote: post #32

Bill Gates had bonds with Epstein. His multi decade marriage fell after the fact became public. He didn't get 1% the flak that Stallman had for commenting about a word to describe Marvin Minsky.

Bill Gates didn't say much about it, except he didn't know about any of the "bad stuff" and was deceived. Stallman said a bunch of to try to either claim that the victims weren't victims. Or to try to downplay what happened. Those are huge differences.

>Bill Gates didn't say much about it, except he didn't know about any of the "bad stuff" and was deceived

The quote everyone seems to remember from Stallman was basically the same thing: he said that Minsky was deceived.

Stallman was also criticized for, inter alia, keeping lewd pictures on the wall of his office at the Free Software Foundation, and (IIRC) hugging people without asking in a way that made them uncomfortable. But I haven't heard anything about that in this thread until I said it myself.

Stallman's comments were later exaggerated by several bloggers, to make them sound outrageous. Somehow the untrue misdeeds have outweighed the real ones, which makes it hard to believe there has been an honest evaluation of the situation.

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#179

Post by brickteacup »

bawolff wrote: post #174
Manuel_D wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then condemn him for the things he actually said or did (and I agree, there are valid reasons to distance oneself from him), not on account of misinformation.

While i agree in principle, in practise it is very human nature that once someone does enouh questionable things people will stop rushing to that person's defense, and it starts to matter much less if the current thing is true. It is sort of reverse boy who cried wolf.

> in practise it is very human nature

yes, it's human nature to be intellectually lazy; that doesn't mean it's a good thing or that it should be encouraged

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#180

Post by jonstewart »

tzs wrote: post #152
kenjackson wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bill Gates didn't say much about it, except he didn't know about any of the "bad stuff" and was deceived. Stallman said a bunch of to try to either claim that the victims weren't victims. Or to try to downplay what happened. Those are huge differences.

> Stallman said a bunch of to try to either claim that the victims weren't victims. Or to try to downplay what happened. What he said was that the girl who was ordered to offer sex to Minsky would have been ordered to present it as if it was a willing offer. This should not have been controversial. One of the first things covered in Evil Villain School is that when you are using your slaves (sex or otherwise) to try…

I think it's reasonably controversial for RMS (or anyone) to make up such hypothetical excuses for Minsky. It's far simpler and easier to think, "wait, Minsky did what? that's awful, there's no excuse for that."
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