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EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

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131–140 of 376 posts

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#131
post #96

Ignoring the questions of whether Stallman's persona is good, bad, or irrelevant this kind of thing shouldn't still be happening. Stallman's personality is not new, and has not changed since the 80s, and nothing newly controversial has come out in like a decade at this point. It's inexcusable at this point to keep inviting him to give talks and then cancelling them. Either you're ok with hosting him regardless and an…

I'd guess that he was earnestly invited by people who respected his contributions to software despite his social obtuseness. Then when the event was publicized, various "groups" got wind of it, threatened to kick up a public relations shitstorm for the institution, and the people who invited him found themselves overruled by "management".

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#132

To those asking, last I heard from Stallman were his comments in the MIT CSAIL mailing list after the Epstein fallout basically of the theme: “some of them surely liked it”. As far as I’m aware he was ousted from MIT soon after, though the folks who actually signed the checks to/from Epstein faced no such consequences. This is America. https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/17/20870050/richard-stallman...

I imagine, much like in the legal system, there is a reduced penalty for an expression of contrition.

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#133
post #96

Ignoring the questions of whether Stallman's persona is good, bad, or irrelevant this kind of thing shouldn't still be happening. Stallman's personality is not new, and has not changed since the 80s, and nothing newly controversial has come out in like a decade at this point. It's inexcusable at this point to keep inviting him to give talks and then cancelling them. Either you're ok with hosting him regardless and an…

There's a good chance the people who arranged the meeting and the people who canceled the meeting rarely ever speak to each other.

Stallman has definitely been a massive driving force behind many of the technological developments and philosophies that back the thriving open source ecosystem we have today.

On the other hand, he has also stated some pretty controversial opinions regarding children and sexual relationships that I remember reading and disagreeing with in context.

If the tech folks arrange a nice meeting with the guy to discuss open source/GNU/etc. and the PR people are only informed later (after the first complaints of his haters undoubtably came in), the cancelation may have come to a surprise to those who set up the meeting.

It can be easy for technically minded people to brush aside politics and old statements when one wants to focus on discussions around technology, but it can also be easy to forget that most engineers and philosophers don't exist in a vacuum.

The text itself very much reads like "we wanted an in-depth discussion about open source but the organisation decided inviting Stallman was not such a good idea". Perhaps the people who invited him were naive, but I too learned about the controversies surrounding the man years later than many others.

The committee that decided to retract the invitation has clearly not done their homework when they approved the invitation, or lacks the necessary vetting procedures for guests. This is a mistake on the side of the people that canceled the invitation, but I wouldn't necessarily throw the people who sent the invitation in the frost place under the bus.

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#134
post #11

We live in a new age, where we can know a lot more about the personal lives of famous people. Decades ago, the problematic personalities of famous people were hidden by the gate keepers. JKF benefited from this. It would be nice if there was a more uniform way to handle situations like this. RMS isn't alone, in being accused of unsavory things. Should we shun Bill Gates because of his relationship with Jeffrey Epstei…

What's interesting about all this speculation about stallman and what he is thinking or not thinking - just read his website:

https://www.stallman.org

you can figure out what he thinks about things because he will tell you.

on the other hand, you can sort of see how issues get cherry-picked for controversy because he probably has thousands of issues he's written about and discusses there.

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a difference between a controversial opinion and one of the strongest taboos in American culture.

It's a fairly modern taboo, historically speaking. While the unrestricted age of consent is between 16 and 18 in all U.S. states, the laws have widely varied across the country in the past. In 1880, the ages of consent were set at 10 or 12 in most states, with the exception of Delaware where it was 7.[104] The ages of consent were raised across the U.S. during the late 19th century and the early 20th century.[105][10…

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Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, his statements regarding pedophilia are enough. It's not exactly a hidden secret. Saying stuff like >I am skeptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children. The arguments that it causes harm seem to be based on cases which aren't voluntary, which are then stretched by parents who are horrified by the idea that their little baby is maturing. Is very controversial, even if he backpedalled (only…

He is skeptical of the basis of the laws and is requesting more information. And this was decades ago. Maybe he changed his mind after people responded to his enquiry? Anyway, it doesn't seem relevent to this recent cancellation.

Somebody had to sit down with him and walk him through why pedophilia is bad and is rape, irrespective of whether the victim gave consent. It is, as they say, "not a good look, my dude".

It's germane to his current persona because of his statements that what Minsky supposedly did does not constitute assault because he was deceived about the victim's age. It was taken as "here we go again, Stallman is defending chomos again."

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#137

Bill Gates had bonds with Epstein. His multi decade marriage fell after the fact became public. He didn't get 1% the flak that Stallman had for commenting about a word to describe Marvin Minsky.

Bill Gates didn't say much about it, except he didn't know about any of the "bad stuff" and was deceived. Stallman said a bunch of to try to either claim that the victims weren't victims. Or to try to downplay what happened. Those are huge differences.

Bill Gates is connected enough to Epstein to be suspected of participating in it. Of course he isn't talking about it.

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#138
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what you think I'm implying about their relationship. It is well-known that Gates continued to associate with Epstein after the latter was convicted of procuring a child for prostitution. There doesn't really need to be anything else to the story in my opinion. (Editing to be clearer: I don't think he is guilty of Epstein's crimes by association. I think he is guilty of associating with Epstein while bei…

What does "associate with" mean in this context? As in, what does it mean concretely? Genuine question. I've had friends ("associated with") that had criminal histories, some of them even quite severe. Of course, I took no part in those crimes, and I don't think anyone here would hold having friends with criminal histories against me.

Gates met with Epstein repeatedly, in-person. He visited Epstein's home, he flew on Epstein's jet, they about Gates Foundation deal.

Gates knew Epstein from earlier so likely would have known about the conviction. Also, it sounds like relationship soured in 2014.

Re: EPFL cancels Stallman's lecture citing “the situation regarding” his persona

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a difference between a controversial opinion and one of the strongest taboos in American culture.

It's a fairly modern taboo, historically speaking. While the unrestricted age of consent is between 16 and 18 in all U.S. states, the laws have widely varied across the country in the past. In 1880, the ages of consent were set at 10 or 12 in most states, with the exception of Delaware where it was 7.[104] The ages of consent were raised across the U.S. during the late 19th century and the early 20th century.[105][10…

If I remember right, the median age of people who have sex before the age of 20 is 15 years. (where I live)

It is one of those slight odd statistics, especially if it is similar in places where the age of consent is 18. It does however explain why there are so many different age of consent, and why it is hard for law makers to fix it to a number that make people happy.

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