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U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

theintercept.com

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Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#161

Post by TechBro8615 »

watwut wrote: post #142
mistermann wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience on social media, this sort of thinking is typically classified as "both sidesing" (or an assertion of "false equivalence", etc etc etc), and is considered to be highly inappropriate. And the people that say these things are often otherwise clearly intelligent, it is less common on HN perhaps, but certainly not uncommon.

Yeah, well, knee jerk both sides are the same which completely ignores major differences between those sides is really wrong. It is mental shortcut that leafs to wrong conclusions and often ends up being a lie.

I think the bigger knee jerk reaction is the need to assign everybody to one side or the other, to the point that nobody perceives any outgroup moderates; anytime they encounter someone with a moderately out-group opinion, they assume the rest of the opinions held by that person must be the most extreme implied by their leaning. Thus people become entrenched in their position as it appears that the out-group is becoming more extreme, ironically leading to a feedback loop that creates a self-fulfilling prophecy of increasing polarization. Or at least, it creates the perception of increased polarization, which is what causes the problems.

I like to suggest that you should imagine the most absurd caricature of a member of the out-group that you can think of - whether that's a "leftist" or a "MAGA republican" - and then ask yourself how many people you actually know who fit that description. Are you creating a scarecrow that's an amalgam of all the viewpoints you oppose?

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#162

Post by lcnPylGDnU4H9OF »

CyberDildonics wrote: post #158
lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument goes: Premise 1) Person came up with Idea. Premise 2) I do not like Person. Conclusion) I do not like Idea. It's not actually a good argument against Idea, it's just a preference.

You are absolutely right, even though you were downvoted at least three times in under a minute for some reason.

Probably, assuming you upvoted. The comment was at -1 when I read this.

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#163

Post by manuelabeledo »

zmgsabst wrote: post #114
manuelabeledo wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In this case, the relevant fact is pro-abortion protestors have a habit of firebombing things. Which is ridiculous, given that there have been two fire bombings claimed by pro-choice groups since 2010, one in NY and another in WI, vs. eighteen committed by anti-abortion groups. That, and the fact that anti-abortion violence is fairly common in the US, compared to pro-choice violence [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org…

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/251553/map-vandalism...

While not insignificant overall, they are a drop in the bucket compared to violence against pro-choice.

This is also a report on "vandalism", and I think we could all agree that aggravated battery and murder, are worse crimes, of which none has been committed by pro-choice groups.

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#164

Post by majormajor »

JellyBeanThief wrote: post #157
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, absolutely. And what's changed is that we now have a massive number of people (on both sides) who no longer agree that these things are important, or at least who think that other things are more important - so much more important that "these things" (constitutional protections) can be circumvented when they get in the way of the "more important things". Constitutional protections are largely running on institut…

It's not that the sides no longer agree that these things are important. They do. The problem is they don't believe they agree that they're important. They believe the other side has abandoned the constitution, and they know that puts their own side at a disadvantage if they stay with it. The two sides are so frightened of each other at this point that all assumptions of good faith are off the table. So, note for nex…

Money vs speech is a good example, I think, of people not agreeing that these things are important or not. And that the "Constitution" part is not the important part.

How would you get a Constitution to separate money when there are so many well-funded pushes for exactly the opposite, resulting in the situation where the courts say money needs to be protected?

Before you can do that you need to get everyone on board with the dangers of money in politics, and then if you can do that, you've solved the problem because now your judges won't interpret "protection of speech" as "protection of buying political influence."

You gotta win the debate either way.

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#165

Post by lcnPylGDnU4H9OF »

majormajor wrote: post #160
dukeofdoom wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

just scare people enough and they will turn in their family members. Especially if you dress it up in being the right moral thing to do. we were so close during the lockdowns, one step away

Are you suggesting turning in family is never the right thing to do? What act would you draw the line at?

> never

I don't think that's what they're saying. I interpret that they believe the issues being faced during the pandemic hysteria weren't ones worthy of turning in family.

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#167

Post by mistermann »

TechBro8615 wrote: post #161
watwut wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, well, knee jerk both sides are the same which completely ignores major differences between those sides is really wrong. It is mental shortcut that leafs to wrong conclusions and often ends up being a lie.

I think the bigger knee jerk reaction is the need to assign everybody to one side or the other, to the point that nobody perceives any outgroup moderates; anytime they encounter someone with a moderately out-group opinion, they assume the rest of the opinions held by that person must be the most extreme implied by their leaning. Thus people become entrenched in their position as it appears that the out-group is becom…

I don't think it's it's just a need, under certain topics many people are simply not able to do otherwise than assume... In these cases, the reality they perceive seems to be almost entirely driven by imagination, and any suggestion that the claims may(!) not actually true is simply rejected outright - if you take them at their word it is literally impossible.

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#168

Post by JeremyNT »

Dig1t wrote: post #45

So many people are okay with unconstitutional things as long as it supports their side and beliefs. It is genuinely unsettling. Personally, I don’t care about the underlying thing the protests are about, the important aspect is that if you allow unconstitutional government action like this, eventually it will be used against you. A decade from now we have no idea what the political climate will be. If the precedent i…

> If the precedent is allowed to be set, there’s a good chance the power will be used against your cause in the future.

I've become deeply cynical about this argument. The Constitution is a weapon, used by the powerful against the powerless. I think it's pretty clear that in many cases the Supreme Court decides cases on purely ideological grounds, then goes back and creates post hoc justifications from precedent and the text.

Public opinion is useless here - it doesn't matter whether people are "OK" with something. What will you do, elect a new Supreme Court?

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#169

Post by locopati »

JellyBeanThief wrote: post #157
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, absolutely. And what's changed is that we now have a massive number of people (on both sides) who no longer agree that these things are important, or at least who think that other things are more important - so much more important that "these things" (constitutional protections) can be circumvented when they get in the way of the "more important things". Constitutional protections are largely running on institut…

It's not that the sides no longer agree that these things are important. They do. The problem is they don't believe they agree that they're important. They believe the other side has abandoned the constitution, and they know that puts their own side at a disadvantage if they stay with it. The two sides are so frightened of each other at this point that all assumptions of good faith are off the table. So, note for nex…

It's pretty hard to have good faith to people who have bullied and been deceptive to attain their goal of undermining bodily autonomy.

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#170

Post by majormajor »

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote: post #165
majormajor wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting turning in family is never the right thing to do? What act would you draw the line at?

> never I don't think that's what they're saying. I interpret that they believe the issues being faced during the pandemic hysteria weren't ones worthy of turning in family.

We weren't talking here about the pandemic OR turning in family so it's a confusing thing to bring up unless painting it as some sort of example of something where "government" should always come second?
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