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Stories We’ve Seen Too Often

strangehorizons.com

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Re: Stories We’ve Seen Too Often

#61

Post by bsder »

rcme wrote: post #54

> Fatness is used as a signal of evil, dissolution, and/or moral decay, usually with the unspoken assumption that it's completely obvious that fat people are immoral and disgusting. My favorite novel that uses this trope has to be A Confederacy of Dunces.

"A Confederacy of Dunces" struck me much more as a chronicle of weird people and their foibles with a large dose of regional flavoring--sort of like Napoleon Dynamite but focused on a city underbelly.

I don't remember "fatness" being a signal of evil, and I don't remember any of the non-fat people being any better than the fat ones.

However, it has been quite a while since I read the novel, and I really didn't like it very much. So, my memory may be faulty, and your mileage may vary.

Re: Stories We’ve Seen Too Often

#62

Post by readthenotes1 »

bombcar wrote: post #46
ivraatiems wrote: post #22

If you're reading this and thinking "aw damn, my idea is cliche, I'll never get something published!" or similar, don't worry too much. Once you subtract the ones that are either just straight-up wish fulfillment, or otherwise reliant on racist/sexist/ageist stereotypes, a lot of the ideas listed here are still perfectly good ideas for a story. They'd be more than "original" enough to drive an episode of Black Mirror…

Hasn't it been said there's only 7 basic stories in the world? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Basic_Plots or something. But who cares that The Lion King and Hamlet may be the same story at the base, they're certainly different enough to be enjoyable each in their own right, and I wouldn't substitute one for the other in some strange form of economization.

The wiki article left off Vonnegut's take on this

https://bigthink.com/high-culture/vonnegut-shapes/

Re: Stories We’ve Seen Too Often

#63

Post by marttt »

bombcar wrote: post #46
ivraatiems wrote: post #22

If you're reading this and thinking "aw damn, my idea is cliche, I'll never get something published!" or similar, don't worry too much. Once you subtract the ones that are either just straight-up wish fulfillment, or otherwise reliant on racist/sexist/ageist stereotypes, a lot of the ideas listed here are still perfectly good ideas for a story. They'd be more than "original" enough to drive an episode of Black Mirror…

Hasn't it been said there's only 7 basic stories in the world? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Basic_Plots or something. But who cares that The Lion King and Hamlet may be the same story at the base, they're certainly different enough to be enjoyable each in their own right, and I wouldn't substitute one for the other in some strange form of economization.

See also: Soviet folklorist Vladimr Propp identified 7 typical characters and 31 basic structural elements in fairy tales: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Propp#Narrative_struc...

Another interesting classification discovered from Propp's Wikipedia entry: Aarne–Thompson–Uther Index of folktale types: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aarne%E2%80%93Thompson%E2%80%9...

Re: Stories We’ve Seen Too Often

#64

Post by readthenotes1 »

fknorangesite wrote: post #44
sdenton4 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neal Stevenson got away with this by getting rid of Adam and adding six additional Eve's.

He also got away with it by not making it a sudden twist at the end; it was never a surprise - it's the title of the book.

I was left in suspense how seven eyes fit in until I reread the title after reading the book...

Re: Stories We’ve Seen Too Often

#65

Post by readthenotes1 »

There has to be some irony that this list of plot points has been done so many times, from Campbell's hero's journey, Vonnegut's shapes, TV tropes, etc.

And still we enjoyed it.

I am sure some English professor somewhere is gnashing his teeth saying something about here's another analysis he doesn't need to see...

Re: Stories We’ve Seen Too Often

#66

Post by bsder »

slg wrote: post #50
gregmac wrote: post #30

Something that stuck out to me was a side-note: > Note that we do like endings that we didn't expect, as long as they derive naturally from character action. This, to me, is probably the biggest thing that makes me hate a story: The character is faced with a situation and reacts in a way contrary to the way we'd expect them to act based on what we've seen so far. It soon becomes obvious they made that decision only t…

This is a big problem for serialized stories now that fan theorizing on the internet is so common. A good plot shouldn't be completely predictable to your audience, but events need to flow from one to the other because characters and their worlds should have consistency. This creates predictability and means some small percentage of your audience can now guess what is going to happen. That was fine a decade or two ag…

> When that happens, the creatives are faced with the choice to change that ending or just deal with the twists and turns getting spoiled.

I disagree wholeheartedly.

The big problem with every single writer nowadays is a complete and total inability to stick the ending.

I'm really trying very hard to come up with a TV show, book or movie that I thought really stuck the ending in the last 10 years (I'm being generous--in reality I'd even say 30 years). A whole host of the fan theories are WAY better than what practically all current writers crap out.

If I'm being charitable, I'll describe the problem as writers lack varied life experience. If I'm being uncharitable, it's that most writers are just not very intelligent.

Re: Stories We’ve Seen Too Often

#67

Post by kayodelycaon »

liotier wrote: post #8

Might as well go to the authority for recycled story bits: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Tropes There is more to storytelling than just originality.

For those who haven't been to TV Tropes, be warned, you will be there for a long time. It's a wiki-walk of nearly infinite depth.

Now, if anyone needs me for the next 3 weeks, you'll know where to find me. :)

Re: Stories We’ve Seen Too Often

#68

Post by jandrese »

koboll wrote: post #58

>30. Brutal violence against women is depicted in loving detail, often in a story that's ostensibly about violence against women being bad. Finally, a perfectly succinct explanation for why I can't stand watching The Handmaid's Tale.

I still say there is very little daylight between The Handmaid's Tale and any random Gor novel. The only difference is in the Gor universe the guys are actually enjoying it.

Re: Stories We’ve Seen Too Often

#69

Post by rikroots »

philipkglass wrote: post #2

If you liked this list, you may also find the Turkey City Lexicon interesting: https://www.sfwa.org/2009/06/18/turkey-city-lexicon-a-primer... It's also aimed directly at aspiring science fiction writers, but it's been referenced enough times on Charles Stross's blog (and other SF venues) that some of its terms have entered my vocabulary and that of other SF readers I know. EDIT: this list does contain the story type…

That second introduction to the TC Lexicon describes - exactly! - the process used in a poetry workshop I attended back in the late 80s[1]. The outcome of each session was also the same, drowning our sorrows in a nearby pub after the meeting, but also forming some strong and long-lasting bonds with our fellow masochists. I'd say I learned 80% of what I know about writing poetry from that workshop, and un-learned 100% of what I thought I knew before I started.

[1] Poetry in the Making, led by Laurie Smith at the City Lit - the critique was brutal, but worth it in the end! https://www.citylit.ac.uk/

Re: Stories We’ve Seen Too Often

#70

Post by erehweb »

bsder wrote: post #66
slg wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a big problem for serialized stories now that fan theorizing on the internet is so common. A good plot shouldn't be completely predictable to your audience, but events need to flow from one to the other because characters and their worlds should have consistency. This creates predictability and means some small percentage of your audience can now guess what is going to happen. That was fine a decade or two ag…

> When that happens, the creatives are faced with the choice to change that ending or just deal with the twists and turns getting spoiled. I disagree wholeheartedly. The big problem with every single writer nowadays is a complete and total inability to stick the ending . I'm really trying very hard to come up with a TV show, book or movie that I thought really stuck the ending in the last 10 years (I'm being generous…

I recommend The Good Place throughout, particularly the ending.
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