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U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

theintercept.com

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Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#111

Post by hwillis »

tqi wrote: post #59

Can someone explain the legal theory that diffentiates using something like Dataminr to monitor tweets vs simply having an army of agents manually searching for them? I agree that it feels like the scale of the former makes it different, but is there a principled reason why that is the case?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expectation_of_privacy_(United...

You are entitled to privacy even for certain public situations. Even if you can see through a window, the government can't go training telescopes inside your home without a warrant. It's an active battle for things like location data.

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#112

Post by hwillis »

Dracophoenix wrote: post #92
detaro wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not exactly unusual that people consider too-detailed and/or large scale attention paid to technically public things "spying" or similar to it. E.g. if the government were to have agents follow members of a group anywhere and watching their homes, without breaking into private spaces, that'd probably be labeled as such too. Even though they are just collecting publicly visible information and report "Mr Smith is…

> Even though they are just collecting publicly visible information and report "Mr Smith is getting close to the court house. Mrs Smith spoke to the lawyer again. If this observation was made done from a public area or from a publicly visible vantage point, how would you're describing be any different from news coverage?

Basically every way? If the government was tracking everywhere you went via cameras, people would also call that spying. Are you arguing that when a spy follows someone in public and watches everything they do, that isn't spying?

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#113

Post by IntrepidWorm »

Dig1t wrote: post #45

So many people are okay with unconstitutional things as long as it supports their side and beliefs. It is genuinely unsettling. Personally, I don’t care about the underlying thing the protests are about, the important aspect is that if you allow unconstitutional government action like this, eventually it will be used against you. A decade from now we have no idea what the political climate will be. If the precedent i…

You have highlighted the core basis of Foucault's Boomarang: it doesn't matter the target of oppresive technologies and practices. Sooner or later, their scope will be turned on you.

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#114

Post by zmgsabst »

manuelabeledo wrote: post #105
zmgsabst wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case, the relevant fact is pro-abortion protestors have a habit of firebombing things. > Twitter, alerted a federal law enforcement agency to pro-abortion protests and rallies in the wake of the reversal of Roe v. Wade, according to documents obtained by The Intercept through a Freedom of Information Act request.

> In this case, the relevant fact is pro-abortion protestors have a habit of firebombing things. Which is ridiculous, given that there have been two fire bombings claimed by pro-choice groups since 2010, one in NY and another in WI, vs. eighteen committed by anti-abortion groups. That, and the fact that anti-abortion violence is fairly common in the US, compared to pro-choice violence [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org…

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/251553/map-vandalism...

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#115

Post by at-fates-hands »

Dig1t wrote: post #45

So many people are okay with unconstitutional things as long as it supports their side and beliefs. It is genuinely unsettling. Personally, I don’t care about the underlying thing the protests are about, the important aspect is that if you allow unconstitutional government action like this, eventually it will be used against you. A decade from now we have no idea what the political climate will be. If the precedent i…

Its always staggering to think people forget we only have a two party system. You'd think that would keep both parties in check from abusing their powers considering at some point the party you went after and did suspect things in order to win a few elections? Well, they're going to be back in power and what do you think they're going to do? The same thing you did.

I feel like we're currently in this death spiral where its just a never ending war to get the other parties people out of power by any means necessary. While the entire time, its the people who have to suffer through it and pick sides.

It appears the centrist moderate has evaporated from American politics - which to me was the last group of voters who kept both sides honest. There is no compromise either, its just a scorched earth approach now where nobody wins.

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#116

Post by siftrics »

amalcon wrote: post #57
jonhohle wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not like money that was previously allocated for debt service could then be moved to something else. In AZ we can direct about $4k to specific organizations and receive a 1:1 tax credit. That impacts revenues, but not how much those programs would receive otherwise.

They could obviously just issue new debt, though.

You can make tax-deductible donations to certain organizations. This results in them getting more funding than they otherwise would. Sure, redirections may not modify the budget of the US government programs directly, but it does have meaningful impact on the world.

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#117

Post by mistermann »

Dig1t wrote: post #45

So many people are okay with unconstitutional things as long as it supports their side and beliefs. It is genuinely unsettling. Personally, I don’t care about the underlying thing the protests are about, the important aspect is that if you allow unconstitutional government action like this, eventually it will be used against you. A decade from now we have no idea what the political climate will be. If the precedent i…

It seems to me that there may have been some sort of a strange, unrealized cultural change in Americans over the last few decades. I seem to recall that the abstract notion of freedom of speech/assembly/etc was considered a VERY big deal by all or at least most Americans. However, this seems to have morphed into people now holding most of their ideological beliefs at specific concrete, object level issue level.

Assuming there is some truth to this, the rise of the internet and a daily deluge of culture war content seems like it could easily explain the transformation.

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#118

Post by kbenson »

robomartin wrote: post #108
Dig1t wrote: post #45

So many people are okay with unconstitutional things as long as it supports their side and beliefs. It is genuinely unsettling. Personally, I don’t care about the underlying thing the protests are about, the important aspect is that if you allow unconstitutional government action like this, eventually it will be used against you. A decade from now we have no idea what the political climate will be. If the precedent i…

> A decade from now we have no idea what the political climate will be. When I was young, due to my family's business, I lived in multiple cultures outside of the US. I have personally experienced precisely the kind of political shift you mention in your post as a teenager, living in Argentina. I am referring to the military take-over. Imagine a world where the police or military thugs can kick down your front door i…

> While the US is busy polarizing its own population --alarmingly, through education-- actors around the world spend ever day placing one foot in front of the other. The result of this massive lack of foresight will not be pretty.

This is how it's always been, it's not new. Just look at the 1960's in America. I'm also not even sure how much of it's the systems in question and how much is the people in question using extreme confirmation bias to polarize themselves, in some cases.

Much of this is the age of the people in question, IMO. Whether they're at college or diver deeper into some social media, youth (late teens and early twenties) is when radicalization happens, whether they're been taught be an institution or not. That leads me to believe that while institutions may be part of the problem, there's something larger that goes on at that age which many different competing interests capitalize on to their own benefit.

Edit: That said, while it's not new, it does appear to be cyclical, and I'm not going to argue against it seeming to have a resurgence.

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#119

Post by sbuk »

zmgsabst wrote: post #114
manuelabeledo wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In this case, the relevant fact is pro-abortion protestors have a habit of firebombing things. Which is ridiculous, given that there have been two fire bombings claimed by pro-choice groups since 2010, one in NY and another in WI, vs. eighteen committed by anti-abortion groups. That, and the fact that anti-abortion violence is fairly common in the US, compared to pro-choice violence [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org…

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/251553/map-vandalism...

Can we have another, unbiased source please. That one is state-sponsored and doesn't provide a credible source.

Re: U.S. Marshals Spied on Abortion Protesters Using Dataminr

#120

Post by robomartin »

jandrese wrote: post #97
Dig1t wrote: post #45

So many people are okay with unconstitutional things as long as it supports their side and beliefs. It is genuinely unsettling. Personally, I don’t care about the underlying thing the protests are about, the important aspect is that if you allow unconstitutional government action like this, eventually it will be used against you. A decade from now we have no idea what the political climate will be. If the precedent i…

I get what you're saying, but on the other hand abortion protesters have a habit of assassinating doctors that perform abortions.

What's interesting about this branch in the discussion is that assassinating anyone and firebombing anything are illegal criminal acts. The underlying reason should not matter to anyone. We already have laws to deal with this.

The problem surfaces when one ideological faction is in power and chooses not to apply the laws --or be lenient-- to people who happen to be on their side of ideological spectrum.

That's what drives a society into what is sometimes referred to as "banana republic" territory. Tolerating this behavior does not result in regulating society towards good outcomes. It's a feedback loop that gets more and more extreme with time. This is not how you build a society where people with different ideas can coexist in peace.

The abortion debate is tough, and agreement --or a middle ground-- may never be reached. However, criminal behavior from any faction in the spectrum of ideas on this topic should not be tolerated at all. It should be punished to the full extent of current law, regardless of who is in power and who might be committing the criminal acts. And, more importantly, those in power --and the media-- must publicly and clearly characterize all criminal acts for what they are.

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