Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health • Hacker News Board

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#211

Post by cauch » Mon, May 15, 2023, 3:57 PM UTC

rcme wrote: post #9

zeroonetwothree wrote: post #4

The causation could easily run the other way. In particular kids that have worse mental health use phones as a coping mechanism. What kind of kid can resist the lure of a phone until she 18? Only one with very strong mental fortitude.

The question being used to derive this data is: > “At what age did you get your own smartphone or tablet (e.g. iPad) with Internet access that you could carry with you?” 6 year olds can't acquire smartphones on their own. So there is definitely an element of parental agency here.

Yep, the population that receive a smartphone early have fundamentally different parents than the population that receive a smartphone late.

So the study is biased: they cannot conclude it's due to the smartphone and not the family environment, as both are different in the two samples.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#212

Post by [deleted] » Mon, May 15, 2023, 3:59 PM UTC

afavour wrote: post #130

rcme wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, social media does. This is like the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" argument. Sure, smartphones are just a tool. But they're a tool used to access social media. Also, I'd argue it's not just social media causing this issue. AI filters that make you look more "beautiful" are commonplace now. Children see themselves through these filter and it may impact their self-esteem, e.g. "why do I look beautif…

> This is like the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" argument. C'mon. Guns are dumb. Smartphones are smart. It's entirely possible to set up a smartphone in a way that blocks access to certain apps, limits how many hours you can use an app in a day, etc etc. The only way your parallel works is if guns had the ability to selectively target bad guys.

[deleted]

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#213

Post by Spooky23 » Mon, May 15, 2023, 3:59 PM UTC

alexb_ wrote: post #45

There is so much instant dismissal of this entire idea that smartphones are harmful in this thread, most of which is just "correlation is not causation". Yes, correlation does not equal causation. But when it makes logical sense why there would be correlation, there is no way to actually measure causation (we can't exactly give kids placebo phones), we keep seeing the same correlation over and over again, why is it b…

I think the audience skews male and single on HN. I have and regularly interact with kids 6-17 right now, as a parent, close uncle and baseball coach.

The effect of phones and tablets in little kids is very obvious - I’ve see kids as young as 3 compulsively watching rubberized tablets under bleachers, in cars, etc.

The younger kids get the shittiest devices - the cheap Amazon tablets. That device is a Skinner box that reinforces poor behavior - act up and you get rewarded with some garbage content.

As they get older, the issues change. My 11 year old just got an iPhone SE, mostly because of some circumstances that make it difficult for him when mom and dad are away. He’s a good kid and responsible, but he’s expressed FOMO/anxiety re missing messages from friends, etc.

That gets worse into the self-esteem issues as they get older.

It’s clearly a difficult tool for children to use effectively without causing harm. It’s also unfortunate as the public infrastructure that I had as a child of the 80s. (Walkable neighborhoods, public phones, etc) don’t exist.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#214

Post by danielvaughn » Mon, May 15, 2023, 4:00 PM UTC

23B1 wrote: post #24

This is one of those obvious correlations that for some reason everyone needs to question. It's not the cellphone itself that's the problem, it's the addictive content readily accessible therein. I'm no luddite, but it's pretty obvious that humans aren't meant to be bent over little black rectangles all day, addicted to our own insecurities.

Just imagine being an adolescent with this technology. I feel lucky that I was in my 20's by the time smart phones were created, and I'd be extremely surprised if they weren't responsible for a decline in mental health for kids.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#215

Post by cassac » Mon, May 15, 2023, 4:00 PM UTC

sdfghswe wrote: post #153

afavour wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is like the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" argument. C'mon. Guns are dumb. Smartphones are smart. It's entirely possible to set up a smartphone in a way that blocks access to certain apps, limits how many hours you can use an app in a day, etc etc. The only way your parallel works is if guns had the ability to selectively target bad guys.

You can also lock guns away, and people find way past the locks. Someone forgets to lock them or someone actively breaks the lock. Sure, smartphones aren't the problem _in themselves_. But blocking apps is also not the solution.

I don’t think “the solution” exists because the problem at its core is people and you can’t solve people. If blocking apps reduces the problem even a tiny bit it is just one more preventative tool to add to the tool box. Why limit your toolbox?

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#216

Post by cauch » Mon, May 15, 2023, 4:02 PM UTC

bhk wrote: post #209

cauch wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My rebuttal would be: it is not impossible to attribute causality, and THIS IS THE PROBLEM. Right now, there are two identically possible situations (well, even more, but you get the jest): A) smartphone -> depression B) depression -> smartphone But the author does not do a good job in explaining why he choose A instead of B, except "it feels logical to me". It feels like a coin toss. (and sure, the author has some a…

Or also.... C) X -> depression AND X -> smartphone First example, X could be "strongly needs to feel included"

yes, exactly

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#217

Post by cpsempek » Mon, May 15, 2023, 4:02 PM UTC

makeitdouble wrote: post #55

timmytokyo wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have my doubts that it's about the phones. It seems more likely that their adult problems are the student loans, the cost of rent, the lack of jobs, the corporate greed, and on, and on. That wouldn't explain the sharp reductions in mental health among girls around 2012. Something definitely seemed to be going on between 2010 and 2014. Cell phone usage patterns could be a part of it, but I'd like to see error bars…

The global economy just tanked and advanced economies were barely recovering. I would see that as enough of a cause for children to feel a bleaker future and be impacted in direct and indeect ways. https://seekingalpha.com/article/184723-an-analysis-of-the-i...

The author, Jonathan Haidt, has considered the global financial crisis but doesn't believe it explains the data [1], he writes

"It’s not because of the Global Financial Crisis. Why would that hit younger teen girls hardest? Why would teen mental illness rise throughout the 2010s as the American economy got better and better? Why did a measure of loneliness at school go up around the world only after 2012, as the global economy got better and better? (See Twenge et al. 2021). And why would the epidemic hit Canadian girls just as hard when Canada didn’t have much of a crisis?"

He is admittedly open to other ideas, but claims that no one to date has been able to provide a explanation for the upticks depression and mental health issues which disproportionately impacts young, pre-teen girls and is seen across many developed countries.

[1] https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/social-media-mental-ill...

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#218

Post by naasking » Mon, May 15, 2023, 4:02 PM UTC

makeitdouble wrote: post #72

alexb_ wrote: post #45

There is so much instant dismissal of this entire idea that smartphones are harmful in this thread, most of which is just "correlation is not causation". Yes, correlation does not equal causation. But when it makes logical sense why there would be correlation, there is no way to actually measure causation (we can't exactly give kids placebo phones), we keep seeing the same correlation over and over again, why is it b…

Because that argument can have no refutation, jor any clear verification. You wont find a control group that lives the same life as these kids but without a cell phone. You can't teleport these kids 50 years earlier etc. So we're bound to hear hot takes that have no other substanciation than "it makes logical sense" My main issue with these hot takes is that it doesn't help, as smartphone aren't going away. In contra…

> So we're bound to hear hot takes that have no other substanciation than "it makes logical sense"

This is wrong. You can correlate onset of mental health issues with when the phone was issued, which Haidt and others have done to some extent. There is a clear indication that soon after the smart phone is introduced, mental health declines despite age.

> My main issue with these hot takes is that it doesn't help, as smartphone aren't going away.

This is also wrong. Not only can they go away, they are going away to some extent. More people are opting for dumb phones.

Also, it entirely neglects the possibility of parental controls over what kids can do with phones.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#219

Post by gjsman-1000 » Mon, May 15, 2023, 4:04 PM UTC

rcme wrote: post #123

afavour wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Smartphones give children the ability to bully eachother at a scale unlike any other. No, social media does. I think it's important to be specific about that because a smartphone is just a tool, same as a laptop or a desktop computer is (when I was a kid there was plenty of bullying that went on via AIM!) Having access to e.g. Wikipedia is of enormous benefit to young people. Having the means to easily call your pa…

> No, social media does. This is like the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" argument. Sure, smartphones are just a tool. But they're a tool used to access social media. Also, I'd argue it's not just social media causing this issue. AI filters that make you look more "beautiful" are commonplace now. Children see themselves through these filter and it may impact their self-esteem, e.g. "why do I look beautif…

I would actually be completely in favor on a ban on smartphone usage until about 16 years of age; which is also the age of consent in the majority of US states. Kids under 16 can possess a flip phone. It would be better for their mental health, encourage a longer childhood, reduce all kinds of social pressure, prevent TikTok-style inappropriate content serving [1] and pedophiles grooming, etc.

The world is not going to set on fire if kids under 16 can't have smart phones. Every generation before now grew up and lived without them. My parents grew up without them. At 16 you are significantly more mentally capable than a 12 year old at dealing with pressure, or a stranger who thinks you are pretty. Your impulse control is also stronger, which helps prevent a vicious addiction cycle.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35932387

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#220

Post by Spooky23 » Mon, May 15, 2023, 4:04 PM UTC

afavour wrote: post #130

rcme wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, social media does. This is like the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" argument. Sure, smartphones are just a tool. But they're a tool used to access social media. Also, I'd argue it's not just social media causing this issue. AI filters that make you look more "beautiful" are commonplace now. Children see themselves through these filter and it may impact their self-esteem, e.g. "why do I look beautif…

> This is like the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" argument. C'mon. Guns are dumb. Smartphones are smart. It's entirely possible to set up a smartphone in a way that blocks access to certain apps, limits how many hours you can use an app in a day, etc etc. The only way your parallel works is if guns had the ability to selectively target bad guys.

Possible yes. Practical for the average parent? No.

I’m a pretty sophisticated technology and mobile user. I’ve built out MDM and MAM solutions for significant deployments of smartphones - setting up limits on individual phones is complex, time consuming, and unreliable. The median user can probably implement a time limit on iOS, but I’d guess 40% of them don’t do it correctly the first time.

A gun is easy to secure. You either don’t have one, lock it, or lock the ammo and gun separately. Physical controls prevent accidental discharge and are easily understood by reasonably intelligent people.

The gun argument is a bad comparison because the rational people who use guns as a tool get drowned out in the noise of paranoids and people selling gun swag.