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Off-grid solar brings light, time and income to remotest villages

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Re: Off-grid solar brings light, time and income to remotest villages

#31

Post by JamisonM »

rd07 wrote: post #18

> While the country has targeted more solar as part of its climate goals, there has been limited progress due to regulations that don’t allow households to sell power back to the grid, ruling out a way of defraying the cost that has helped people afford solar in other parts of the world. I little correction here, Indonesia do have a regulation that allow households to sell power back to the grid[1]. [1] https://money…

My Bahasa Indonesia is not strong enough to read that article but it seems to be referencing this:

https://www.ahp.id/brighter-days-ahead-as-indonesias-ministr...

Reading the details is seems like it is still pretty true that there are regulations that don't allow households to sell power back to the grind. There are not regulations forbidding the practice but even with these reforms the practice seems regulated in a way to make it difficult and give the power generation and distribution companies total control:

"Like the previous regime, the New Regulation limits the capacity of the rooftop solar system installed by the customer of such system within the business area of a state-owned entity holding an IUPTLU to 100% of their connected power. However, rooftop solar customers whose systems are connected to other IUPTLU holders besides a state-owned entity may be subject to a different limitation as determined by the relevant IUPTLU holders. These holders must declare their respective limitation on an annual basis.."

My reading of this is that it is now possible for a IUPTLU to allow someone to offset more than 100% of their electricity usage but it is not required for any of them to provide that option, just register the terms with the regulator.

Re: Off-grid solar brings light, time and income to remotest villages

#32

Post by twelvechairs »

rippercushions wrote: post #21
photochemsyn wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The unstated statistic in this article is that Indonesia's reliance on coal has grown from 20% of national energy production to 40% of energy production over the 2005-2020 period, which accounts for most of that 85% to 97% growth factor. https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/indonesia-clings-coa... The slow growth of renewables particularly in remote locations is certainly a good thing, but the actual nation-wide p…

This is particularly sad since Indonesia is volcanically very active and has tons of potential for geothermal power. Many of its islands are also quite dry, which couples with the equatorial location makes them great for year-round solar.

Nearly 60% of indonesias population and most of its industry are on Java, the most densely populated island in the world. 150m+ people on a place the size of Pennsylvania or Mississippi. Its absolutely not easy to find space for solar at scale in such a space constrained environment it would really require some massive infrastructure to a solar farm in the sea or another island.

Singapore is a good comparison - a much richer country also space constrained they are only starting to develop renewables seriously now (solar farms in the sea etc.)

Less populous islands sure but its a small proportion and they tend to have less money to tackle these issues also

Re: Off-grid solar brings light, time and income to remotest villages

#33

Post by quechimba »

rektide wrote: post #27
latchkey wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can get quite a of of it, at that price. Shipping to a remote island in the middle of nowhere, is more expensive.

In my mind I was comparing versus the alternative stated of buying a generator & fuel for it. The generator will be up-front pricier, weightier, and bulkier, by far on each count. So it still seems like a huge win to me versus what's available now, if the use case is as described.

I'll try to find out how people could afford buying generators. Solar shouldn't be much more expensive but I can't find any prices online.

Re: Off-grid solar brings light, time and income to remotest villages

#34

Post by thrdbndndn »

photochemsyn wrote: post #14
DoreenMichele wrote: post #5

Indonesia has brought electricity to millions of people in recent years, going from 85% to nearly 97% coverage between 2005 and 2020, according to World Bank data. But there are still more than half a million people in Indonesia living in places the grid doesn’t reach. While barriers still remain, experts say off-grid solar programs on the island could be replicated across the vast archipelago nation, bringing renewa…

The unstated statistic in this article is that Indonesia's reliance on coal has grown from 20% of national energy production to 40% of energy production over the 2005-2020 period, which accounts for most of that 85% to 97% growth factor. https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/indonesia-clings-coa... The slow growth of renewables particularly in remote locations is certainly a good thing, but the actual nation-wide p…

Sounds like a non-issue to me. If the line is about having electricity or not, I would choose coal every time.

One can argue they can grow the coverage the same but with renewables, but I don't think for a (relatively speaking) poorer country that's as easy.

Re: Off-grid solar brings light, time and income to remotest villages

#35

Post by stephen_g »

ronnier wrote: post #16

What’s going to happen when the haves can afford to buy solar and go off grid leaving the have-nots left on a grid increasingly void of people who can pay for it? I suspect off grid users will be taxed heavily and/or it’ll be illegal to not pump back into the grid. Will probably be illegal to go off grid in the future

I hope to get a battery system to offset some of my costs, but I can't forsee not being connected to the grid as backup and to sell some excess energy back anyway.

I don't have an electric car either, so while my current solar system (6.6kW) could power my current household energy use basically year-round (if I had sufficient battery capacity), I would only be able to slow charge solely off that, so I expect I will still be buying energy from the grid once I get an EV for times I want to fast charge (probably 11kW three phase), even with the solar and a hypothetical battery.

Re: Off-grid solar brings light, time and income to remotest villages

#36

Post by George83728 »

quechimba wrote: post #30
rektide wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can get quite a lot of night time light out of a $65 100Whr lipo and a $50 inverter. That sounds much better to me than a generator.

That's half the monthly minimum wage, most people here make even less, and everyone has at least a few kids to feed. Also everything is more expensive because it's so remote. There are no roads so everything has to be brought here by airplane or boat. If you order something from Amazon (the website) to the Amazon (the rainforest) shipping is at quite expensive and then there's import fees too...

Uh huh, and how expensive, heavy and bulky was the generator and the fuel they have to constantly feed it?

If they need/want more than just lighting, then fair enough. But for just lighting, rektide's proposal blows a generator out of the water.

Re: Off-grid solar brings light, time and income to remotest villages

#37

Post by Scoundreller »

> Children sometimes studied by makeshift oil lamps, but these occasionally burned down homes when knocked over by the wind.

So a big issue with these is that kerosene has a flash point of 37C to 62C. So at the lower end of the scale, they’re basically like gasoline and capable of lighting up all at once at barely above room temperature (and the burning flame will likely warm it up a bit). Meanwhile diesel is 52C to 93C and would burn more slowly if a lamp burning it were tipped over (and more likely to just get extinguished)

There have been cheap “safety” lamps built that don’t explode when tipped over along with other safeguards for developing countries:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe_bottle_lamp

https://gulfnews.com/lifestyle/lamp-lustre-1.621831

Re: Off-grid solar brings light, time and income to remotest villages

#38

Post by cperciva »

Scoundreller wrote: post #37

> Children sometimes studied by makeshift oil lamps, but these occasionally burned down homes when knocked over by the wind. So a big issue with these is that kerosene has a flash point of 37C to 62C. So at the lower end of the scale, they’re basically like gasoline and capable of lighting up all at once at barely above room temperature (and the burning flame will likely warm it up a bit). Meanwhile diesel is 52C to…

Doesn't kerosene burn more cleanly than diesel though? You might save lives from fires but lose them from poor air quality.

Re: Off-grid solar brings light, time and income to remotest villages

#40

Post by deepmauka »

gpm wrote: post #29
epistasis wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sort of lifestyle is really feasible on solar. Rooftops alone are likely enough, or at worst some bit of agrovoltaics. The vast majority of Western energy is wasted, rejected as waste heat. Solar electrification skips over a wasteful thermodynamic conversion of heat to electricity. Even the rare case where fossil fuels seem at first glance as efficient, such as for heating water and homes, it turns out that 99%…

> That sort of lifestyle As I said in another comment, once people can afford a better lifestyle, they aren't remotely likely to choose to keep living the worse one. On the other hand, I too am a fan of solar and electricity. I completely buy the solar + storage + grid is sufficient for a western lifestyle. I'm not arguing against solar, I'm arguing against lack of grid, that connecting houses, towns, and cities toge…

My home in the wet tropics is solar powered. A small array of eight 325w panels supports 3 people, a regular AC refrigerator, electric kettle, electric hotplate, washer/dryer, and continuously running ceilings fans for moisture. In periods of cloud cover we still generate some power, we just switch to propane cooking and being frugal with our power budget. Solar is a no brainer in the tropics.
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