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All the arguments against EVs are wrong

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Re: All the arguments against EVs are wrong

#71

Post by leetcrew »

r00fus wrote: post #58
justinator wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There is emerging evidence that tyre wear particles and other particulate matter may contribute to a range of negative health impacts including heart, lung, developmental, reproductive, and cancer outcomes." https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/02/230222210553.h...

But EVs being worse is handwaved away in the article without any hard data: “ Some are concerned that electric vehicles tend to be heavier, which might increase tyre wear” That’s a fact-free argument.

basic physics intuition suggests that a relatively heavier vehicle with much more torque available from rest would abrade away more tire material in daily use. maybe this could be mitigated with special tires for EVs, but it seems like a pretty reasonable starting assumption. while it would be nice to link an actual study on this, I'm pretty comfortable putting the burden of proof on the position on the opposing position.

Re: All the arguments against EVs are wrong

#72

Post by [deleted] »

oblio wrote: post #57
charcircuit wrote: post #49

How about on this one: Gasoline has a higher energy density than lithium ion batteries meaning that you will have less weight to carry around giving you a more nimble vehicle. It also lets you accelerate faster from the same engine torque since you have to accelerate less mass. With electric vehicles you have to carry a battery for you entire range and it is not easy to swap out.

That's partly balanced out by the greater engine efficiency, 90-95% versus 30-35-40%. Also regenerative braking. Oh, and much better engine efficiency at low speeds.

[deleted]

Re: All the arguments against EVs are wrong

#73

Post by mcculley »

the_third_wave wrote: post #53
jmclnx wrote: post #24

For warm climates in urban areas, I can agree, but here are things never fully covered anywhere: 1. Heat in the winter, this will reduce you range, some just a little, but in places like Minnesota in Feb, a lot. 2. Stuck in traffic. If you are stuck in grid lock, that will cut in range, there have been cases were gridlock could last hours. Granted maybe EV stop power usage in this case. But under very hot or cold wea…

> But under very hot or cold weather, you will lose AC and Heat At least the "hot weather" situation could be remedied by adding a solar roof and possibly hood to the vehicle. While it does not really add much in the way of range extension it does provide power to run AC when it is needed. An average car roof is big enough to provide 400W to 600W which goes a long way in offsetting the power consumed by the AC.

As a Floridian who has always consumed a lot of energy trying to keep cool, I am surprised by: "An average car roof is big enough to provide 400W to 600W which goes a long way in offsetting the power consumed by the AC."

These numbers don't seem correct to me. What are you using for average surface area for a roof, expected solar collected, and AC consumption?

Re: All the arguments against EVs are wrong

#74

Post by starbase »

jmclnx wrote: post #24

For warm climates in urban areas, I can agree, but here are things never fully covered anywhere: 1. Heat in the winter, this will reduce you range, some just a little, but in places like Minnesota in Feb, a lot. 2. Stuck in traffic. If you are stuck in grid lock, that will cut in range, there have been cases were gridlock could last hours. Granted maybe EV stop power usage in this case. But under very hot or cold wea…

> Battery recycling and disposal...remember piles of tires sitting in people's yards 40+ years ago?

Not going to happen. Old tires have negative value. Old EV batteries are worth over $1000 apiece.

Re: All the arguments against EVs are wrong

#75

Post by rektide »

jmclnx wrote: post #47
throw0101b wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. Heat in the winter, this will reduce you range, some just a little, but in places like Minnesota in Feb, a lot. Better inform the folks in Norway (75% EV share), Iceland (45%), and Sweden (32%): * https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/02/electric-vehicles-eur... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_the_Nordic_countrie... > 2. Stuck in traffic. If you are stuck in grid lock, that will cut in range, there have…

>Better inform the folks in Norway (75% EV share), Iceland (45%), and Sweden (32%): I was waiting for this, those countries do not get the winter people in Minnesota and Montana get. Far less sever on average. A quick search: Is Minnesota or Norway colder? What is this? FARGO — Oslo, the capital of Norway, is located at 60 degrees north. Fargo and Duluth are closer to 47 degrees north. Winter weather in the Dakotas a…

Oslo is both sheltered & pretty far south for Norway. Norway only extends to 58 degrees N. It goes north to 71 degrees N.

I don't actually known what a better comparison is & I don't know the answers, but I'm kind of unsurprised Oslo is so relatively warm. I haven't found good winter temperature maps but indeed the average temperature maps bear this out well.

Interesting data point! I don't know how representative it is, how much it really says, but indeed surprising.

Re: All the arguments against EVs are wrong

#76

Post by rektide »

mcculley wrote: post #73
the_third_wave wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But under very hot or cold weather, you will lose AC and Heat At least the "hot weather" situation could be remedied by adding a solar roof and possibly hood to the vehicle. While it does not really add much in the way of range extension it does provide power to run AC when it is needed. An average car roof is big enough to provide 400W to 600W which goes a long way in offsetting the power consumed by the AC.

As a Floridian who has always consumed a lot of energy trying to keep cool, I am surprised by: "An average car roof is big enough to provide 400W to 600W which goes a long way in offsetting the power consumed by the AC." These numbers don't seem correct to me. What are you using for average surface area for a roof, expected solar collected, and AC consumption?

The Aptera is a huge beast of a car designed specifically for solar, and I believe the current figure is that it can get 700W at a nice solar optimum. Big sweeping hood, roof, and trunk of solar.

I doubt many cars can get 400W. I don't think most cars could maintain even 80 degrees on a 100+ day, but that's just a guess.

Re: All the arguments against EVs are wrong

#77

Post by the_third_wave »

mcculley wrote: post #73
the_third_wave wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But under very hot or cold weather, you will lose AC and Heat At least the "hot weather" situation could be remedied by adding a solar roof and possibly hood to the vehicle. While it does not really add much in the way of range extension it does provide power to run AC when it is needed. An average car roof is big enough to provide 400W to 600W which goes a long way in offsetting the power consumed by the AC.

As a Floridian who has always consumed a lot of energy trying to keep cool, I am surprised by: "An average car roof is big enough to provide 400W to 600W which goes a long way in offsetting the power consumed by the AC." These numbers don't seem correct to me. What are you using for average surface area for a roof, expected solar collected, and AC consumption?

The available roof area of a Skoda Octavia Estate - a common car in Europe - measures 2m x 1m which, given common 21% efficiency PV cells provides 420W at 1000 W/m² irradiance. This is considered a "medium sized" car. Add the hood and 600W is easily reached.

Re: All the arguments against EVs are wrong

#78

Post by the_third_wave »

rektide wrote: post #76
mcculley wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Floridian who has always consumed a lot of energy trying to keep cool, I am surprised by: "An average car roof is big enough to provide 400W to 600W which goes a long way in offsetting the power consumed by the AC." These numbers don't seem correct to me. What are you using for average surface area for a roof, expected solar collected, and AC consumption?

The Aptera is a huge beast of a car designed specifically for solar, and I believe the current figure is that it can get 700W at a nice solar optimum. Big sweeping hood, roof, and trunk of solar. I doubt many cars can get 400W. I don't think most cars could maintain even 80 degrees on a 100+ day, but that's just a guess.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aptera_(solar_electric_vehicle...

The Aptera is not "a huge best of a car", it more resembles a seed pod on three wheels. The roof and hood area are quite limited due to this shape which leads to the relatively low solar yield.

Re: All the arguments against EVs are wrong

#79

Post by bryanlarsen »

vmladenov wrote: post #35
jmclnx wrote: post #24

For warm climates in urban areas, I can agree, but here are things never fully covered anywhere: 1. Heat in the winter, this will reduce you range, some just a little, but in places like Minnesota in Feb, a lot. 2. Stuck in traffic. If you are stuck in grid lock, that will cut in range, there have been cases were gridlock could last hours. Granted maybe EV stop power usage in this case. But under very hot or cold wea…

> Stuck in traffic. If you are stuck in grid lock, that will cut in range, there have been cases were gridlock could last hours. This is just abjectly wrong. The absolutely best use case for an EV is during gridlock. You can run the heater on a (pre-heat pump) Model 3 for something like 2 days in 15F weather, and people have hypermiled it to 600 miles at 20-30mph. In gridlock you’re not expending any energy to idle t…

If you're worried about heat turn the cabin heater off and just run the seat heaters. You can run those for a month on half a battery.

Re: All the arguments against EVs are wrong

#80

Post by bryanlarsen »

jmclnx wrote: post #24

For warm climates in urban areas, I can agree, but here are things never fully covered anywhere: 1. Heat in the winter, this will reduce you range, some just a little, but in places like Minnesota in Feb, a lot. 2. Stuck in traffic. If you are stuck in grid lock, that will cut in range, there have been cases were gridlock could last hours. Granted maybe EV stop power usage in this case. But under very hot or cold wea…

Most of your points have been addressed, but.

Vehicle lead acid batteries have a >99% recycling rate. The high rate is mostly due to economic reasons but partly due to regulatory ones. EV batteries will get reused or recycled.

As for range in the winter, on our heart pump equipped Model Y we see a 20% range reduction in the winter at -20C. No big deal. On the other hand we're never sure our gasoline vehicle will start without a boost. Much more annoying.

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