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Language models still struggle with the concept of negation

quantamagazine.org

161–170 of 172 posts

Re: Language models still struggle with the concept of negation

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Structure. GPT has seen lots of logical constructions/arguments for things. These are either explicitly in code (in documentation) or are implicitly in code (code is often a linear sequence of steps building to, for example, a return value). ChatGPT learns patterns like this. A prompt may condition the generator to produce something like one of these patterns with elements from the prompt substituted into the generat…

>but they can only reason using their memories and the prompt. Eh no. https://arxiv.org/abs/2212.10559 >But if you try very hard you can find "held out" data and when you test on it, GPT4 stops looking so smart: This can be done to anybody. This can be done to you. It's not a gotcha. Nobody is saying GPTs don't/can't memorize.

Two things about this.

1. the paper in question demonstrates a formal duality between the transformer architecture and gradient descent. If you take this to indicate that the model reasons in some way, then it would be true of the smallest GPT as well as the largest (it is, after all, a consequence of the architecture rather than anything the model has learned to do per se). In any case, the fact that the model can perform the equivalent of a finite number of gradient-like steps on its way to calculating its final conditioned probabilities doesn't really suggest to me that the model reasons in a general way.

2. You are right that no one disputes the model's ability to memorize (and rephrase). What is at question here is whether the model can reason. If it can do 10 code questions it has seen before but fails to do 10 it hasn't (of similar difficulty) then it strongly suggests that it isn't reasoning its way through the questions, but regurgitating/rephrasing.

Re: Language models still struggle with the concept of negation

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but they can only reason using their memories and the prompt. Eh no. https://arxiv.org/abs/2212.10559 >But if you try very hard you can find "held out" data and when you test on it, GPT4 stops looking so smart: This can be done to anybody. This can be done to you. It's not a gotcha. Nobody is saying GPTs don't/can't memorize.

Two things about this. 1. the paper in question demonstrates a formal duality between the transformer architecture and gradient descent. If you take this to indicate that the model reasons in some way, then it would be true of the smallest GPT as well as the largest (it is, after all, a consequence of the architecture rather than anything the model has learned to do per se). In any case, the fact that the model can p…

>If it can do 10 code questions it has seen before but fails to do 10 it hasn't (of similar difficulty) then it strongly suggests that it isn't reasoning its way through the questions, but regurgitating/rephrasing.

First of all, coding is one thing where expecting perfect try on first pass makes no sense. That GPT-4 didn't one-shot those problems doesn't mean it can't solve them.

Moreover, all this says if true is that GPT-4 isn't as good at coding as initially thought. Nothing else. Doesn't mean it doesn't reason. There are many other tasks where GPT-4 performs about as well on out of distribution/unseen data

Re: Language models still struggle with the concept of negation

#163
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm ok with your language. I found the "competent in English" rather immature and juvenile, but it's not a big deal and really minor. I also understand that you might not realize how heated this sub thread was as the other guy deleted half his posts and flagged one of mine (therefore possibly making it invisible to you). So adding a little heat to something that looks tame isn't a big deal. I won't continue the flame…

I'm presuming you're new here since your account is new & I seem to detect some misunderstandings about how HN works. If I presume too much, my apologies. Are you aware of the "showdead" function in your settings? I don't think they deleted any comments, they were flagged. If you turn on showdead, you'll be able to see them again. (You can't delete a comment someone's responded to, or after 2 hours.) I don't know if…

Thanks for your response. I want to continue the conversation on bats so I won't respond about the other stuff.

Take a look at this. The bats are walking on all fours: https://youtu.be/ewmydjekJnU?t=62 This is not a vulnerable position as they crawl on all fours on cave walls rather then the ground. On the ground they are vulnerable, on the wall or ceiling of some cavernous structure they are safe.

Re: Language models still struggle with the concept of negation

#164
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I'm ok with your language. I found the "competent in English" rather immature and juvenile, but it's not a big deal and really minor. I also understand that you might not realize how heated this sub thread was as the other guy deleted half his posts and flagged one of mine (therefore possibly making it invisible to you). So adding a little heat to something that looks tame isn't a big deal. I won't continue the flame…

I didn't delete any posts, nor did I flag or downvote any of yours. I actually resurrected one of yours (vouched) so that I could reply to it.

Re: Language models still struggle with the concept of negation

#165
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm ok with your language. I found the "competent in English" rather immature and juvenile, but it's not a big deal and really minor. I also understand that you might not realize how heated this sub thread was as the other guy deleted half his posts and flagged one of mine (therefore possibly making it invisible to you). So adding a little heat to something that looks tame isn't a big deal. I won't continue the flame…

I didn't delete any posts, nor did I flag or downvote any of yours. I actually resurrected one of yours (vouched) so that I could reply to it.

[flagged]

Re: Language models still struggle with the concept of negation

#166
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Birds don't have paws because they aren't quadrupeds according to websters. Bats walk on fours. They are quadrupeds therefore they have paws according to Merriam Webster. Why don't you address the point I brought up? I already completely understand your definition no need to reiterate it. However, there is a clear disconnect between your definition of paw and the definition from Merriam Webster. Please address it.

[flagged]

four feet.

Re: Language models still struggle with the concept of negation

#167
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't delete any posts, nor did I flag or downvote any of yours. I actually resurrected one of yours (vouched) so that I could reply to it.

[flagged]

[flagged]

Re: Language models still struggle with the concept of negation

#168
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm ok with your language. I found the "competent in English" rather immature and juvenile, but it's not a big deal and really minor. I also understand that you might not realize how heated this sub thread was as the other guy deleted half his posts and flagged one of mine (therefore possibly making it invisible to you). So adding a little heat to something that looks tame isn't a big deal. I won't continue the flame…

I'm presuming you're new here since your account is new & I seem to detect some misunderstandings about how HN works. If I presume too much, my apologies. Are you aware of the "showdead" function in your settings? I don't think they deleted any comments, they were flagged. If you turn on showdead, you'll be able to see them again. (You can't delete a comment someone's responded to, or after 2 hours.) I don't know if…

So... Sorry to continue off-topic... but I just looked at byyyy's about string. https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=byyyy

It says: "I don't really write stuff. What I do is use my personally trained LLM (trained on my own conversations) to respond to people. So you are talking to me in a way but not really.

Any query my LLM gets wrong I will interject with my own response but this is only 5% of the time."

Maybe this is not off-topic after all. Does HN have a policy on bots?

Re: Language models still struggle with the concept of negation

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm presuming you're new here since your account is new & I seem to detect some misunderstandings about how HN works. If I presume too much, my apologies. Are you aware of the "showdead" function in your settings? I don't think they deleted any comments, they were flagged. If you turn on showdead, you'll be able to see them again. (You can't delete a comment someone's responded to, or after 2 hours.) I don't know if…

So... Sorry to continue off-topic... but I just looked at byyyy's about string. https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=byyyy It says: "I don't really write stuff. What I do is use my personally trained LLM (trained on my own conversations) to respond to people. So you are talking to me in a way but not really. Any query my LLM gets wrong I will interject with my own response but this is only 5% of the time." Maybe this…

Move on, dude.
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