Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us? • Hacker News Board

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#131

Post by dennis_jeeves1 » Sat, May 13, 2023, 1:13 AM UTC

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #130

dennis_jeeves1 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

__MatrixMan__ , the biology class is a fair start. But isn't one of the core principles of what is considered 'good' science, experimentation, or what happens in practice?

Experimentation, yes. Practice, maybe. Are you proposing that there's an ongoing experiment somewhere in practice that might inform my view? I'm open to that, but my impression of actual farmers is that they're bound by so many artificial constraints that their experience is unlikely to align with sound experiment design.

>Are you proposing that there's an ongoing experiment somewhere in practice that might inform my view?

Yes, there are. Or at least relatively close to the thought experiment. I have seen them over the years. If I find a good article or a video I will post it.

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#132

Post by [deleted] » Sat, May 13, 2023, 1:16 AM UTC

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #123

dennis_jeeves1 wrote: post #114

In the spirit of 'science' here is a potential experiment that can be conducted to resolve the debt: 1)Individual 1 is a vegan. he is given 10 acres of land, He is free to grow whatever he wants and eat. The restriction here is he cannot raise any animals whatsoever including insects for food. 2) Individual 2 is a animal products eater, is also is given 10 acres of land, he can raise whatever he wants: pigs, chickens…

I think the answer to both is the carnivore. If it were 100 farmers and 10000 acres, the it would be 1) vegan 2) carnivore. This is because you need more diversity to be healthily vegan than you do to be healthily carnivore. Carnivore is more damaging in both cases because however your slice it, you're going to have to dedicate more overall land to farming if you're eating animals, and that's a greater footgun probab…

[deleted]

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#133

Post by zamnos » Sat, May 13, 2023, 1:27 AM UTC

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #126

dennis_jeeves1 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The vegans would survive because so much less of the overall space would be dedicated to farmland. Are you really sure about the "overall space" part? I mean have you really examined it? Do you have direct experience, as in having lived in a farmland, Or have you talked to a farmer? Or have you closely listen to accounts of farmers on videos or essays?

No direct experience, just biology class. This was on the final that I took today :) Given a fixed amount of sunlight and a fixed time window, you've got W available Joules. Only X makes it into plant biomass. If you're eating a consumer, only Y makes it into animal biomass, and then only Z is available to the human. In all known cases W > X > Y > Z, generally by factors of 2 to 20. The vegans are going to need X/Y t…

(X - Z) is not necessarily a lazy junk food-eating person who doesn't understand nutrition, only what tastes good's (Y - Z).

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#134

Post by __MatrixMan__ » Sat, May 13, 2023, 5:18 AM UTC

zamnos wrote: post #133

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No direct experience, just biology class. This was on the final that I took today :) Given a fixed amount of sunlight and a fixed time window, you've got W available Joules. Only X makes it into plant biomass. If you're eating a consumer, only Y makes it into animal biomass, and then only Z is available to the human. In all known cases W > X > Y > Z, generally by factors of 2 to 20. The vegans are going to need X/Y t…

(X - Z) is not necessarily a lazy junk food-eating person who doesn't understand nutrition, only what tastes good's (Y - Z).

I might be missing something, but the healthy-vs-unhealthy choices axis seems orthogonal here. Vegans and meat eaters both have their fair share of healthy and unhealthy people. The matter at hand is the necessary acreage that they have to dedicate to farming.

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#135

Post by MadSudaca » Sat, May 13, 2023, 4:19 PM UTC

dmbche wrote: post #112

MadSudaca wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s feasible, like living in space is feasible. With a lot of effort and a toll on your body. How much of that land could be used for farming food for humans? Brazil has famously poor soil.

Go watch Gamechangers - see how easy it is to thrive on plants

The fact that they had to make a movie showing that people can have muscles following a plant-based diet proves my point. If it was widely feasible, they wouldn't have to create propaganda to support the point.

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#136

Post by dmbche » Sat, May 13, 2023, 6:41 PM UTC

MadSudaca wrote: post #135

dmbche wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go watch Gamechangers - see how easy it is to thrive on plants

The fact that they had to make a movie showing that people can have muscles following a plant-based diet proves my point. If it was widely feasible, they wouldn't have to create propaganda to support the point.

That's kinda circular isn't it? "Since they made a movie it has to be fake"?

Come on my friend, at least try. And without even thinking about my nutrition I am a healthy vegan since 9 years, not taking supplements and eating cheap localish food.

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#137

Post by zamnos » Sun, May 14, 2023, 12:14 PM UTC

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #134

zamnos wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(X - Z) is not necessarily a lazy junk food-eating person who doesn't understand nutrition, only what tastes good's (Y - Z).

I might be missing something, but the healthy-vs-unhealthy choices axis seems orthogonal here. Vegans and meat eaters both have their fair share of healthy and unhealthy people. The matter at hand is the necessary acreage that they have to dedicate to farming.

> Vegans and meat eaters both have their fair share of healthy and unhealthy people.

I don't take that as a given. Of course there are vegans who are unhealthy, but eating vegan is not straightforwards. You do actually have to do some amount of research to not develop problems eating vegan (B12 deficiency is a common side-effect of yolo eating vegan) and have some idea about nutrition. There is no such requirement to eating whatever. Unless you eat one thing exclusively (like an all-beef-and-only-beef diet), as an omnivore you'll get all the nutrients you need.