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Pharo 11

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Re: Pharo 11

#171

Post by xkriva11 »

klibertp wrote: post #166
igouy wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious as to whether Pharo does work with --headless on your Fedora install. (I don't currently have an Ubuntu install to poke.)

It seems to work. I found Pharo 10 on disk, running it like this: -▶ ~/portless/pharolauncher/pharo-vm/pharo --headless Pharo10-SNAPSHOT-64bit-0618067.image a.st with a.st: Object subclass: #BenchmarksGame instanceVariableNames: '' classVariableNames: '' poolDictionaries: '' category: ''! Transcript show: BenchmarksGame! First signals an error: primitive #primLoadSymbol:module: in TFFIBackend failed this seems to be…

In Pharo Launcher, go to "VMs" and try to delete the VM. Pharo should work on Windows just fine. If not, please, report it on the issue tracker with more details.

> BTW, Smalltalk/X has a fully functional REPL, including console based Inspector and debugger. Imagine what would happen if you suggested providing such functionality in Pharo... ("only masochists can bear working with terminal", the "incredible" community says)

You should not generalize in this way. Some people are working on the TUI Spec backend to allow all the tools to run from the console, and I don't know anyone who doesn't realize the importance of keyboard control.

Re: Pharo 11

#172

Post by klibertp »

igouy wrote: post #169
klibertp wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to work. I found Pharo 10 on disk, running it like this: -▶ ~/portless/pharolauncher/pharo-vm/pharo --headless Pharo10-SNAPSHOT-64bit-0618067.image a.st with a.st: Object subclass: #BenchmarksGame instanceVariableNames: '' classVariableNames: '' poolDictionaries: '' category: ''! Transcript show: BenchmarksGame! First signals an error: primitive #primLoadSymbol:module: in TFFIBackend failed this seems to be…

From the gist that install doesn't work headless. Seems like this: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/9729#issuecomm...

I mean... it executed code that was supposed to print "Hello world\n" and it did print that, so how is it not working? :) I have no idea why is libgit needed to boot a VM (is it even?), but evidently some functionality is still available despite the error. Not that it changes much...

Re: Pharo 11

#173

Post by klibertp »

xkriva11 wrote: post #171
klibertp wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to work. I found Pharo 10 on disk, running it like this: -▶ ~/portless/pharolauncher/pharo-vm/pharo --headless Pharo10-SNAPSHOT-64bit-0618067.image a.st with a.st: Object subclass: #BenchmarksGame instanceVariableNames: '' classVariableNames: '' poolDictionaries: '' category: ''! Transcript show: BenchmarksGame! First signals an error: primitive #primLoadSymbol:module: in TFFIBackend failed this seems to be…

In Pharo Launcher, go to "VMs" and try to delete the VM. Pharo should work on Windows just fine. If not, please, report it on the issue tracker with more details. > BTW, Smalltalk/X has a fully functional REPL, including console based Inspector and debugger. Imagine what would happen if you suggested providing such functionality in Pharo... ("only masochists can bear working with terminal", the "incredible" community…

> Pharo should work on Windows

Wait, what? We're talking about Linux. Pharo Launcher also, obviously, doesn't display anything, so how could I do anything there?

> report it on the issue tracker with more details.

No.

> You should not generalize in this way.

Sorry, that was too much, you're right. While it is an exact quote from a member of the community, of course it doesn't mean everyone there is that bad.

Good to know that some people have a bit of a common sense. Congrats.

Re: Pharo 11

#174

Post by igouy »

klibertp wrote: post #172
igouy wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the gist that install doesn't work headless. Seems like this: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/9729#issuecomm...

I mean... it executed code that was supposed to print "Hello world\n" and it did print that, so how is it not working? :) I have no idea why is libgit needed to boot a VM (is it even?), but evidently some functionality is still available despite the error. Not that it changes much...

https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/9729#issuecomm...

When all the required dependencies are being found on your Fedora install we should wonder why "the VM seemed to hang and never started properly" but not before.

Re: Pharo 11

#175

Post by klibertp »

igouy wrote: post #174
klibertp wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean... it executed code that was supposed to print "Hello world\n" and it did print that, so how is it not working? :) I have no idea why is libgit needed to boot a VM (is it even?), but evidently some functionality is still available despite the error. Not that it changes much...

https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/9729#issuecomm... When all the required dependencies are being found on your Fedora install we should wonder why "the VM seemed to hang and never started properly" but not before.

Yeah, sure. But why would I put effort into providing the dependencies to Pharo on silver platter? I engaged here just to show that it, indeed, doesn't work for me and I'm not misrepresenting anything. Now, it even looks like a well known (yet still not fixed) problem, so I have no further need to do anything.

And no, LD_PRELOAD is not something I should be using, or at least, I didn't need to use it with any other Smalltalk, nor any other program I tried to run in a the past decade. I did have to use it once, with Baldurs Gate 2 (Linux/steam version) and that's about it.

Re: Pharo 11

#176

Post by igouy »

klibertp wrote: post #175
igouy wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/9729#issuecomm... When all the required dependencies are being found on your Fedora install we should wonder why "the VM seemed to hang and never started properly" but not before.

Yeah, sure. But why would I put effort into providing the dependencies to Pharo on silver platter? I engaged here just to show that it, indeed, doesn't work for me and I'm not misrepresenting anything . Now, it even looks like a well known (yet still not fixed) problem, so I have no further need to do anything. And no, LD_PRELOAD is not something I should be using, or at least, I didn't need to use it with any other…

Is it the missing `libpcre.so.3` `libpcreposix.so.3` ?

    ldd libgit2.1.0.0.so

Re: Pharo 11

#177

Post by klibertp »

igouy wrote: post #176
klibertp wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, sure. But why would I put effort into providing the dependencies to Pharo on silver platter? I engaged here just to show that it, indeed, doesn't work for me and I'm not misrepresenting anything . Now, it even looks like a well known (yet still not fixed) problem, so I have no further need to do anything. And no, LD_PRELOAD is not something I should be using, or at least, I didn't need to use it with any other…

Is it the missing `libpcre.so.3` `libpcreposix.so.3` ? ldd libgit2.1.0.0.so

No.

Re: Pharo 11

#178

Post by igouy »

klibertp wrote: post #175
igouy wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/9729#issuecomm... When all the required dependencies are being found on your Fedora install we should wonder why "the VM seemed to hang and never started properly" but not before.

Yeah, sure. But why would I put effort into providing the dependencies to Pharo on silver platter? I engaged here just to show that it, indeed, doesn't work for me and I'm not misrepresenting anything . Now, it even looks like a well known (yet still not fixed) problem, so I have no further need to do anything. And no, LD_PRELOAD is not something I should be using, or at least, I didn't need to use it with any other…

There seem to be 4 different install methods shown on the Pharo download page. Seems like you used "Pharo Launcher"?

There are also "GNU/Linux Packages" and in particular rpm for Fedora 37, Fedora 36, Fedora 35, Fedora 34. I wonder if you tried them?

On the few occasions that I've needed Pharo, I simply downloaded the "Pharo stable VM for Linux" and "Pharo image" separately and unpacked them into the same directory. Maybe it helped to already have a working git install.

Re: Pharo 11

#179

Post by bowsamic »

klibertp wrote: post #161
bowsamic wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, to be clear, you are saying that it is indecent that there isn't a notice on their page saying "this project is not for lazy people. Please go away if you are too lazy to find the tutorial"? I really don't think that is more decent

[flagged]

[flagged]

Re: Pharo 11

#180

Post by klibertp »

bowsamic wrote: post #179
klibertp wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

[flagged]

Look, I spent 5 years trying to work with Pharo. Not a few minutes. Yeah, I don't care about Pharo anymore. At all. That's because of what I've been through with it and its community. So please stop telling me I'm lazy, entitled, or that I "don't care after a few minutes". I've been giving Pharo chances for years - it just never got any better.

I'm mentioning Cincom (no affiliation) Visual Works over and over again. If you read it carefully, you'd see that I'm not entirely OK with the restrictive personal license, the lack of any cryptography-related stuff (incl. HTTPS), and the closed source VM. I'd prefer a Smalltalk without these restrictions. I still use VW and not Pharo - because the gap in quality of the software is so incredibly wide that it dwarfs other considerations. VW looks like it's made by professionals (well paid at that). Pharo looks anything but, yet (politely, out of concern and genuine interest) pointing it out gets you hate and verbal violence from the community.

I want an open source Smalltalk implementation. I want more people to like Smalltalk. I want more people to use Smalltalk. Pharo could be helpful with these, but it's not. Instead of a gateway into Smalltalk ecosystem, Pharo is an impenetrable wall to new users. And the community doesn't care. There are some people that do care. See Glamorous Toolkit. See Cuis.

I wrote a few small pet projects in Pharo, back in 2012. They kept getting broken release after release. And at some point, the default download with official releases stopped working altogether. And never worked again. There's a ticket from 2021 (created years after it stopped working for me) describing the problem: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/9729 This is a regression brought about due to another rewrite of something. Still not fixed. You know, I could fix myself and contribute the fix - I have the skills and could potentially find the time. But Pharo and its community burned so many bridges for me that this is not going to happen.

Call me petty all you want, but the kinds of people running Pharo are just not worth being helped.

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