Has Apple sounded the last POST? • Hacker News Board

Re: Has Apple sounded the last POST?

#51

Post by jjav » Sat, May 13, 2023, 6:32 AM UTC

sonofhans wrote: post #19

userbinator wrote: post #11

Apple has always chosen form over function, and this isn't any exception; the aesthetics of a "clean" boot process is clearly more important to them than being able to easily figure out what's happening, and I suspect at least part of the reason for this opaqueness is to encourage learned helplessness and visits to the Apple Store (which may result in upselling or otherwise exchange of $$$) when something doesn't wor…

For sure I take your point about seeing POST information. When I switched from Debian to OS X (10.0) I installed an app which gave me that POST info on boot. It looked pretty cool. I was used to seeing it in Linux for years, and it make me happy to have it on OS X. > Apple has always chosen form over function. But this isn’t true, and there’s substantial evidence against it. Steve Jobs is famous for saying, “Design i…

> This “encouraging learned helplessness” you talk about is in fact the opposite.

> and when they break they should be taken to professionals to fix

That's precisely "learned helplessness". You can't do anything, take it to the professionals, is the lesson you're supposed to learn.

Example of cars is apt. The owners manual of a car these days doesn't tell you anything useful, anything that needs works is just "take it to the dealer". Compare to car owner manuals of decades past which went into deep technical detail on maintenance, valve adjustments, etc.

Re: Has Apple sounded the last POST?

#52

Post by [deleted] » Sat, May 13, 2023, 6:54 AM UTC

userbinator wrote: post #11

Apple has always chosen form over function, and this isn't any exception; the aesthetics of a "clean" boot process is clearly more important to them than being able to easily figure out what's happening, and I suspect at least part of the reason for this opaqueness is to encourage learned helplessness and visits to the Apple Store (which may result in upselling or otherwise exchange of $$$) when something doesn't wor…

[deleted]

Re: Has Apple sounded the last POST?

#53

Post by sonofhans » Sat, May 13, 2023, 7:02 AM UTC

jjav wrote: post #51

sonofhans wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For sure I take your point about seeing POST information. When I switched from Debian to OS X (10.0) I installed an app which gave me that POST info on boot. It looked pretty cool. I was used to seeing it in Linux for years, and it make me happy to have it on OS X. > Apple has always chosen form over function. But this isn’t true, and there’s substantial evidence against it. Steve Jobs is famous for saying, “Design i…

> This “encouraging learned helplessness” you talk about is in fact the opposite. > and when they break they should be taken to professionals to fix That's precisely "learned helplessness". You can't do anything, take it to the professionals, is the lesson you're supposed to learn. Example of cars is apt. The owners manual of a car these days doesn't tell you anything useful, anything that needs works is just "take i…

The analogy is apt, yes, and the reasons are the same. Cars decades ago were simple physical systems. I could take apart my 1980 Mercedes with one box worth of tools. A modern Mercedes can’t even be tuned without special software. Even more modern cars — EVs — are basically laptops with wheels. The old world is gone, and we’re never going back to it.

It’s not learned helplessness for me to realize that I can’t debug the firmware of a modern car. Even if it were OSS, I’d still have to rely on the expertise of others to solve my problems.

Do you know how to plant wheat? Butcher a cow? Refine iron? Is it “learned helplessness” that you can’t do these things yourself? You’re not an island :)

Re: Has Apple sounded the last POST?

#54

Post by Dalewyn » Sat, May 13, 2023, 7:06 AM UTC

jjav wrote: post #51

sonofhans wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For sure I take your point about seeing POST information. When I switched from Debian to OS X (10.0) I installed an app which gave me that POST info on boot. It looked pretty cool. I was used to seeing it in Linux for years, and it make me happy to have it on OS X. > Apple has always chosen form over function. But this isn’t true, and there’s substantial evidence against it. Steve Jobs is famous for saying, “Design i…

> This “encouraging learned helplessness” you talk about is in fact the opposite. > and when they break they should be taken to professionals to fix That's precisely "learned helplessness". You can't do anything, take it to the professionals, is the lesson you're supposed to learn. Example of cars is apt. The owners manual of a car these days doesn't tell you anything useful, anything that needs works is just "take i…

>That's precisely "learned helplessness". You can't do anything, take it to the professionals, is the lesson you're supposed to learn.

Pretend you're a common man, you're Joe Schmoe: Is it worth your while to learn, know, and care about all the intricacies of how a computer (and specifically a Mac) boots? And even if you do, is it worth your while to learn, know, care, and have on hand the means necessary to fix a computer that won't boot?

I would answer: No. Taking it "to the professionals" is the quicker and cheaper option.

Re: Has Apple sounded the last POST?

#55

Post by AnthonyMouse » Sat, May 13, 2023, 7:07 AM UTC

doctor_eval wrote: post #14

userbinator wrote: post #11

Apple has always chosen form over function, and this isn't any exception; the aesthetics of a "clean" boot process is clearly more important to them than being able to easily figure out what's happening, and I suspect at least part of the reason for this opaqueness is to encourage learned helplessness and visits to the Apple Store (which may result in upselling or otherwise exchange of $$$) when something doesn't wor…

I'm the opposite. I see all that junk on a PC booting and I think to myself, well, what happens if one of those tests fail? I'm gonna reboot. And if it keeps failing, I'll take it to a shop. If I take a Mac to the Apple store, they will run their in-house diagnostics and tell me what's wrong. If I take a PC to the PC store, they will run their own diagnostics and tell me what's wrong. So what benefit does this messy…

Let's ignore the benefit it gives to anyone who wants to solve their problem quickly instead of having to take a round trip to the mall.

It gives information to third party shops so they can fix your computer. Which provide competition and give you the option to save money, and impose competitive pressure on the OEM to charge more reasonable prices for repairs, which benefits you even if you still patronize the OEM's store.

Re: Has Apple sounded the last POST?

#56

Post by [deleted] » Sat, May 13, 2023, 7:08 AM UTC

userbinator wrote: post #11

Apple has always chosen form over function, and this isn't any exception; the aesthetics of a "clean" boot process is clearly more important to them than being able to easily figure out what's happening, and I suspect at least part of the reason for this opaqueness is to encourage learned helplessness and visits to the Apple Store (which may result in upselling or otherwise exchange of $$$) when something doesn't wor…

[deleted]

Re: Has Apple sounded the last POST?

#57

Post by rjzzleep » Sat, May 13, 2023, 7:12 AM UTC

stephen_g wrote: post #38

userbinator wrote: post #11

Apple has always chosen form over function, and this isn't any exception; the aesthetics of a "clean" boot process is clearly more important to them than being able to easily figure out what's happening, and I suspect at least part of the reason for this opaqueness is to encourage learned helplessness and visits to the Apple Store (which may result in upselling or otherwise exchange of $$$) when something doesn't wor…

They tend not to upsell you much at the Apple Store… Last time one of my MacBooks was well and truly stuffed, they ended up eventually just giving me a new laptop that was four years newer (it was the Nvidia graphics chip fault in the 2011 MacBook Pro, before the official repair program started. They tried replacing the logic board twice but when the second one failed they just swapped the laptop for a brand new 2015…

Official apple support vastly differs depending on the country, so in terms of service US support seems to vastly more friendly and lenient than most other countries.

Re: Has Apple sounded the last POST?

#58

Post by [deleted] » Sat, May 13, 2023, 7:18 AM UTC

userbinator wrote: post #11

Apple has always chosen form over function, and this isn't any exception; the aesthetics of a "clean" boot process is clearly more important to them than being able to easily figure out what's happening, and I suspect at least part of the reason for this opaqueness is to encourage learned helplessness and visits to the Apple Store (which may result in upselling or otherwise exchange of $$$) when something doesn't wor…

[deleted]

Re: Has Apple sounded the last POST?

#59

Post by AnthonyMouse » Sat, May 13, 2023, 7:19 AM UTC

brigade wrote: post #28

userbinator wrote: post #11

Apple has always chosen form over function, and this isn't any exception; the aesthetics of a "clean" boot process is clearly more important to them than being able to easily figure out what's happening, and I suspect at least part of the reason for this opaqueness is to encourage learned helplessness and visits to the Apple Store (which may result in upselling or otherwise exchange of $$$) when something doesn't wor…

What diagnostics would even help an average user repair any issue that isn't resolved by a DFU revive? Even for a PC all the POST failure guides don't have any branches that depend on what's happening or anything the screen says, it's all "well try jiggling things, reinstall Windows, update BIOS, and swap hardware components until it works"

POST codes are vendor-specific but they'll generally tell you the general category of a hardware problem, e.g. memory error, video error, CPU error. Then if it's a memory error you try reseating the memory or removing half of it and then the other half to see if you have a bad stick, etc. Knowing it's a memory error is useful so you don't waste time trying to fiddle with the video card.

Re: Has Apple sounded the last POST?

#60

Post by sweetjuly » Sat, May 13, 2023, 7:41 AM UTC

POST really doesn't make sense in many embedded systems and most modern devices I've worked on or with don't use them. The general approach to boot has been to just try and boot but have a safe failure path. That is, if DRAM times out/a bus error is raised, fail out to an embedded bootloader which can boot over USB/SWD. If flash doesn't respond, fail out. This is exactly what Apple is doing with DFU. It makes sense too; why waste time explicitly testing when you can just "test" it by booting?

Sure, maybe if you're building something that has life and limb risks, POST it up before coming online, but most consumer electronics have no need.