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Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

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Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#111

Post by dmbche »

gs17 wrote: post #110
dmbche wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh - people's power isn't in lower their impact on the environnement, it's in stopping the corporations that are doing in by all means. We act like all the options are is a)Being mindful of your emissions (Which will change nothing for the planet) b)Do nothing (Also changes nothing) While the actual option is to stop the corporations by any and all means. Native americans have a history of doing this with little supp…

Doing something is objectively better than actively making the problem worse while pretending you have no responsibility. Calling for other people to do things you yourself won't do (how many acts of ecoterrorism have you done lately?) isn't really helping, it's the same self-serving logic I was complaining about.

My actions are my own - and ad hominems aren't all that fruitful in conversation I believe.

Funny you went to ecoterrorism - I wouldn't have called what Native Americans were doing eco terrorism - they were defending their way of life.

There are many things you can do that are more impactful than taking the bus and that aren't blowing up pipelines - chatting with representatives, working with journalists to help undercover situations, working with activists you support the actions and reasoning of....see what I mean?

I think your logic is self serving - if everyone thinks like you, are things going to change? Because they sure don't seem like they will. But you feel comfortable in your daily life.

(And to add - objectively better can be right even if the ''positive value'' is imperceptible. Are you doing actual efforts to solve the issue or just enough to not feel like it's your responsibility?)

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#112

Post by dmbche »

MadSudaca wrote: post #99
yesfitz wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To your second point, we'll agree that a plant-based diet with supplements is feasible for human health. Your first point is misleading because we currently grow a lot of food to feed animals to eat, and clear out forests to make pasture. - "More than three-quarters (77%) of soy is used as feed for livestock."[1] - "Seventy per cent of formerly forested land in the Amazon, and 91% of land deforested since 1970, is us…

It’s feasible, like living in space is feasible. With a lot of effort and a toll on your body. How much of that land could be used for farming food for humans? Brazil has famously poor soil.

Go watch Gamechangers - see how easy it is to thrive on plants

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#113

Post by dmbche »

0xBombadilo wrote: post #89
myshpa wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. > grazing animals use land that generally is not fit for farming plants ... make land productive that otherwise would not be Not every land has to be "productive". This thinking got us where we are. > In order to farm soy beans or whatever plant you eat, you have to tear up the soil and in doing so you will kill every ground squirrel, ground nesting bird ... Crop fields do indeed disrupt the habitats of wild ani…

This is your brain on veganism. You have no concept of how cattle are actually raised. They are grazed on grassland. No farmer is cultivating food plots of soy beans and bringing them to the cattle. You are thinking of feedlots which cattle go to before slaughter where they are fed corn or soy for a short period of time in order to fatten them up. The existence of a feedlot does not change the fact that for the vast…

For anyone reading this, for having seen and chatted with a farmer raising AAA Angus beef for McDonalds, everything the above commenter is saying is wrong.

The beef are in lots as soon as they are taken from their mothers and are fed from soy and other crops.

Most of the beef production is not fed grass - or it is a byproduct of giving them access to outside, but isn't their main nutrition.

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#114

Post by dennis_jeeves1 »

In the spirit of 'science' here is a potential experiment that can be conducted to resolve the debt:

1)Individual 1 is a vegan. he is given 10 acres of land, He is free to grow whatever he wants and eat. The restriction here is he cannot raise any animals whatsoever including insects for food.

2) Individual 2 is a animal products eater, is also is given 10 acres of land, he can raise whatever he wants: pigs, chickens, cows etc. The restriction here is he cannot any eat any vegetation directly. He can eat only meat, eggs, milk etc.

Conditions:

Both these individuals should be independent, that is there should be no external resources provided to them. For example the person who raises cows, should not be provided with hay. Or the vegan should not be provided with pesticides.

Assume that both these farmers have identical resources otherwise: same type of land, access to the same amount of water etc.

Questions:

1) Who among the 2 do you think will will be more healthy?

2) Who among the 2 do you think will be more destructive to the environment?

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#115

Post by dennis_jeeves1 »

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #58
myshpa wrote: post #7

One of the leading reasons why we're in such deep mess are our systems of food production, esp. animal agriculture (75% of agriculture lands, uses more land than forests) & fishing. - The majority of deforestation (particularly in the Amazon), is driven by livestock farming. By reducing demand for animal products, we could slow or even reverse the trend of habitat destruction, thus preserving biodiversity. - Growing…

> - Growing plants to feed animals and then consuming those animals is an inefficient way of obtaining calories and nutrients. Shifting to a plant-based diet would allow us to feed more people with less land, reducing the pressure on wild habitats. I think about this all the time. We need to get the US to stop subsidizing beef so that it can be priced according to its trophic level and not according to its favor with…

I have posted a poll here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35923261

What would your response be to my question 1) and question 2)

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#116

Post by dennis_jeeves1 »

0xBombadilo wrote: post #89
myshpa wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. > grazing animals use land that generally is not fit for farming plants ... make land productive that otherwise would not be Not every land has to be "productive". This thinking got us where we are. > In order to farm soy beans or whatever plant you eat, you have to tear up the soil and in doing so you will kill every ground squirrel, ground nesting bird ... Crop fields do indeed disrupt the habitats of wild ani…

This is your brain on veganism. You have no concept of how cattle are actually raised. They are grazed on grassland. No farmer is cultivating food plots of soy beans and bringing them to the cattle. You are thinking of feedlots which cattle go to before slaughter where they are fed corn or soy for a short period of time in order to fatten them up. The existence of a feedlot does not change the fact that for the vast…

I have posted a poll here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35923261

What would your response be to my question 1) and question 2)

Sidenote: I am with you as to what happens to the brains of vegans :)

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#117

Post by dennis_jeeves1 »

myshpa wrote: post #95
0xBombadilo wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is your brain on veganism. You have no concept of how cattle are actually raised. They are grazed on grassland. No farmer is cultivating food plots of soy beans and bringing them to the cattle. You are thinking of feedlots which cattle go to before slaughter where they are fed corn or soy for a short period of time in order to fatten them up. The existence of a feedlot does not change the fact that for the vast…

> You have no concept of how cattle are actually raised. They are grazed on grassland. No farmer is cultivating food plots of soy beans and bringing them to the cattle. You are thinking of feedlots which cattle go to before slaughter where they are fed corn or soy for a short period of time in order to fatten them up. While it's true that cattle are often raised on grasslands, the global demand for beef has led to ma…

I have posted a poll here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35923261

What would your response be to my question 1) and question 2)

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#118

Post by dennis_jeeves1 »

AlexandrB wrote: post #48
myshpa wrote: post #7

One of the leading reasons why we're in such deep mess are our systems of food production, esp. animal agriculture (75% of agriculture lands, uses more land than forests) & fishing. - The majority of deforestation (particularly in the Amazon), is driven by livestock farming. By reducing demand for animal products, we could slow or even reverse the trend of habitat destruction, thus preserving biodiversity. - Growing…

I think you're absolutely right, but this message is greeted with open hostility in many parts of the internet. Availability of cheap meat is almost seen as a god-given right in developed countries.

I have posted a poll under the main thread here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35923261

What would your response be to my question 1) and question 2)

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#119

Post by dennis_jeeves1 »

dmbche wrote: post #112
MadSudaca wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s feasible, like living in space is feasible. With a lot of effort and a toll on your body. How much of that land could be used for farming food for humans? Brazil has famously poor soil.

Go watch Gamechangers - see how easy it is to thrive on plants

I have posted a poll under the main thread here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35923261

What would your response be to my question 1) and question 2)

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#120

Post by dennis_jeeves1 »

yesfitz wrote: post #87
MadSudaca wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Growing plants to feed animals and then consuming those animals is an inefficient way of obtaining calories and nutrients. Shifting to a plant-based diet would allow us to feed more people with less land, reducing the pressure on wild habitats. Regarding this point, it's important to remember that animals have the ability to transform materials we can't get any sustenance from, because they're not edible, into food…

To your second point, we'll agree that a plant-based diet with supplements is feasible for human health. Your first point is misleading because we currently grow a lot of food to feed animals to eat, and clear out forests to make pasture. - "More than three-quarters (77%) of soy is used as feed for livestock."[1] - "Seventy per cent of formerly forested land in the Amazon, and 91% of land deforested since 1970, is us…

I have posted a poll under the main thread here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35923261

What would your response be to my question 1) and question 2)

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