Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts • Hacker News Board

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#281

Post by meragrin_ » Fri, May 12, 2023, 9:19 PM UTC

aardvarkr wrote: post #8

Lots of comments that didn’t read the article so here’s a good excerpt on why there’s a lawsuit. Baltimore’s lawsuit says the companies “failed to keep up with industry standards,” and claim it was a result of business decisions made to reduce costs and boost profits “notwithstanding decades of academic literature and research supporting the deterrent effects” of anti-theft technology. “The dramatically increased rat…

> Lots of comments that didn’t read the article so here’s a good excerpt on why there’s a lawsuit.

Yea, I don't think that is it.

> "Car thieves ... engage in reckless driving, creating substantial safety risks to themselves and Baltimore residents and their property."

I don't see anything about Hyundai or Kia taking the cars for joy rides. They are not going out and encouraging people to steal their cars. They are not responsible for enforcing community standards. There is no law which states they must use any certain anti-theft technology. The cars are in no way malfunctioning. So why is there a lawsuit?

Why not go after the owners? They bought the cars and didn't care whether they had anti-theft technology.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#282

Post by [deleted] » Fri, May 12, 2023, 9:19 PM UTC

macinjosh wrote: post #164

hoofhearted wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a little early to be drinking isn’t it? The city is suing to recover the money they spent on all the police efforts expended because Kia cut corners to reduce costs.

Schwinn does nothing to stop bicycle thefts. Let’s sue them too!

[deleted]

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#283

Post by r00fus » Fri, May 12, 2023, 9:19 PM UTC

sidewndr46 wrote: post #197

taylodl wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legally it is. If there was no signs of forced entry then you're not going to be compensated for your loss and the police aren't going to pursue any suspects. But that's not what this case is about. To use your analogy, imagine KIA were a lock maker such as Kwikset. You bought their lock to install on your front door. You locked your door and left the house. You came back and your TV was gone, with no signs of forced…

The police aren't going to pursue any suspects over a stolen TV period. The obligation of the police is not to solve crime. They are more or less required to create a police report for you, but that is about it.

Not to defend the police but the cops (in CA) did follow up on a burglary of my wife's handbag (with wallet/ids/phone) from her car at a gas station.

If the theft was part of a bigger issue with (to use the Kwikset hypothetical) the vendor's product defect allowing mass thefts then it would be important to the police.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#284

Post by narag » Fri, May 12, 2023, 9:25 PM UTC

aardvarkr wrote: post #8

Lots of comments that didn’t read the article so here’s a good excerpt on why there’s a lawsuit. Baltimore’s lawsuit says the companies “failed to keep up with industry standards,” and claim it was a result of business decisions made to reduce costs and boost profits “notwithstanding decades of academic literature and research supporting the deterrent effects” of anti-theft technology. “The dramatically increased rat…

Lots of comments that didn’t read the article...

I didn't read it either... because I'd read a bunch of other articles and watched videos about the problem a couple of months ago.

IMHO the root cause is that it's impossible with current legislation/courts practice to deter this kind of behaviour. Specifically:

* Many of the perpetrators are minors

* Stealing a car, depending on cirsumstances, is a misdemeanor

* There is no mounting of repeated offenses

* Police can't keep the suspects on custody for long and prosecution is overkill for the results

So more or less, stealing a car is free. And instead of fixing the above points (maybe Baltimore as a city can't do that on its own) the "solution" is suing car makers.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#285

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel » Fri, May 12, 2023, 9:28 PM UTC

whitej125 wrote: post #170

I figured these Hyundai/Kia thefts using a USB cable was some techy issue... like there was a auto technicians USB port that would disable car security if it has something plugged into it. No. After 5 minutes of searching you see that a USB-A connector just happens to fit perfectly over the nub in the ignition and allows you to turn it. The problem is there is no engine immobilizer. So you can start the engine just b…

"Immobilisers have been mandatory in all new cars sold in Germany since 1 January 1998, in the United Kingdom since 1 October 1998, in Finland since 1998, in Australia since 2001 and in Canada since 2007." (Wikipedia)

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#286

Post by xhkkffbf » Fri, May 12, 2023, 9:29 PM UTC

Convolutional wrote: post #185

I should point out to those not from the US that this is how Americans view the US. There is a lot of crime, the government and NGOs are on the side of the criminals etc. It is up voted to the top as well, with agreement in the replies, this is how Americans view the US. The US incarcerates more people than China, despite China having more than four times as many people, but the view obviously is the incarceration ra…

Note: the incarceration rates were much higher in the past and that's the basis of many of these claims. What you're seeing now is the political backlash from those rates. Many crimes aren't prosecuted and the cops often don't do anything. So it's not exactly fair to say that Baltimore has a high incarceration rate these days.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#287

Post by spaceman_2020 » Fri, May 12, 2023, 9:30 PM UTC

Convolutional wrote: post #185

I should point out to those not from the US that this is how Americans view the US. There is a lot of crime, the government and NGOs are on the side of the criminals etc. It is up voted to the top as well, with agreement in the replies, this is how Americans view the US. The US incarcerates more people than China, despite China having more than four times as many people, but the view obviously is the incarceration ra…

Although I lived in the US for just a year, my impression was that a) US promoted an all-or-nothing culture, and b) crime, especially gun-related crime, was wildly glorified.

My layman belief is that this isn’t just a law and order issue. Its a cultural dysfunction.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#288

Post by tedajax » Fri, May 12, 2023, 9:30 PM UTC

local_crmdgeon wrote: post #143

ravensfan69 wrote: post #139

I live in Baltimore, in a pretty "good" part of town where most of the young professionals and Hopkins hospital staff live. I know 4 different people who've had cars stolen in the past 24 months. In 3 of these cases the perpetrators were teenagers, and in 2 of these cases they brandished guns. Only one of these thefts were Hyundai/Kia-related, and the thief punched my buddy in the face during the theft. Many others I…

Yeah, at some point in Chicago and Baltimore people figured out that career criminals vote, and will vote in their own interests. Very few people vote in local elections anyway, so they've managed to elect a ton of prosecutors who promise not to prosecute. Feels like the 70s in Urban America repeating itself. I feel bad for the older Black population in Baltimore. They busted ass for the last 50 years and they got to…

Legitimately insane take, thank you

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#289

Post by maxerickson » Fri, May 12, 2023, 9:30 PM UTC

renlo wrote: post #244

Convolutional wrote: post #185

I should point out to those not from the US that this is how Americans view the US. There is a lot of crime, the government and NGOs are on the side of the criminals etc. It is up voted to the top as well, with agreement in the replies, this is how Americans view the US. The US incarcerates more people than China, despite China having more than four times as many people, but the view obviously is the incarceration ra…

If China executes prisoners who would be imprisoned in the US, is it a fair to compare the number of incarcerated in the US and China [1]? In the US they get a lengthy prison sentence, increasing the moving sum of incarcerated for the US, in China they are shot, decreasing the moving sum of the incarcerated for China. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_offences_in_China

~10,000 executions a year¹. It would take roughly 5 million people for China to match the US incarceration rate.

So it's probably fair enough to compare incarceration rates and numbers.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_China#Ra...

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#290

Post by atonse » Fri, May 12, 2023, 9:31 PM UTC

henryfjordan wrote: post #135

endisneigh wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

flawed or not, the onus is not on Kia. ultimately baltimore is suing them because of the spike in car thefts, not because of the flawed design. presumably if baltimore had no thieves, there would be no thefts irrespective of the design. so in effect baltimore is suing kia becuase their cars are getting stolen which is ridiculous. i don't know how anyone can defend this. this would be like baltimore suing banks for al…

You cannot make something that you know will cause a nuisance. You cannot, for instance, sell fireworks only between 1-3am in the middle of a neighborhood and act surprised when the neighbors are mad at you because kids are setting them off all night. It was absolutely predictable that these cars would be stolen and that the police would have to deal with the fallout. Just because there's no explicit law does not mea…

is there evidence that car thefts are higher due to Kia, or due to lax enforcement? I suspect it’s a bit of both and Baltimore is trying to pin it all on anyone else but them.

Not making excuses for Kia. They should absolutely get penalties for taking shortcuts. But I feel that higher insurance premiums and a bad reputation would take care of it. And people won’t buy their cars.