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Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

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Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#181

Post by pfannkuchen »

local_crmdgeon wrote: post #149
giantg2 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“The dramatically increased rate of Hyundai and Kia theft in Baltimore has required city and police resources that would not have been needed but for Hyundai and Kia’s deliberate failures,” I'd like to see the data here. Is there any indication that the crime wouldn't be present in other areas of life? Would the people committing these crimes be law-abiding citizens if not for the temptation of these cars being easie…

This. The problem is that Baltimore treats crime as being separate from criminals. Almost all crime is committed by a tiny, tiny group of people - in NYC, 327 people commit 1/3rd of all shoplifting. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/15/nyregion/shoplifting-arre... We used to just warehouse people like this, and we stopped because that was mean and did not get us likes on Instagram.

There is a theoretical limit to the rate at which a society can digest unsocialized people, and this is affected by the exposed surface area of the clumps of unsocialized people. Where by “unsocialized” I mean with respect to that particular society - people in any society are “unsocialized” with respect to any other sufficiently separate society. We seem to have run into a case of serious indigestion. Traditionally we warehoused people who weren’t being digested successfully. Why we stopped is a really interesting question.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#182

Post by bavila »

taylodl wrote: post #109
JustSomeNobody wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I leave my door open and someone steals my TV, it's not my fault I don't have a TV anymore.

Legally it is. If there was no signs of forced entry then you're not going to be compensated for your loss and the police aren't going to pursue any suspects. But that's not what this case is about. To use your analogy, imagine KIA were a lock maker such as Kwikset. You bought their lock to install on your front door. You locked your door and left the house. You came back and your TV was gone, with no signs of forced…

> Legally it is. If there was no signs of forced entry then you're not going to be compensated for your loss and the police aren't going to pursue any suspects.

To the extent that common law is generally adopted in the United States, theft is the intentional taking of the property of another with the intent to permanently deprive the owner of said property. It doesn't matter whether there's forced entry or not (you may be thinking of burglary -- either way, principles of "constructive breaking" could still apply depending on the law as codified by a given jurisdiction).

Even from a less pedantic standpoint, if I had a home surveillance system that captured the entire incident on camera (along with the perpetrator's face and the license plate of the vehicle that he used to drive off with my TV), there is still sufficient evidence to arrest and prosecute. There is no legal requirement of "signs of forced entry" to sustain a theft charge under these circumstances.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#183

Post by aksss »

ravensfan69 wrote: post #139

I live in Baltimore, in a pretty "good" part of town where most of the young professionals and Hopkins hospital staff live. I know 4 different people who've had cars stolen in the past 24 months. In 3 of these cases the perpetrators were teenagers, and in 2 of these cases they brandished guns. Only one of these thefts were Hyundai/Kia-related, and the thief punched my buddy in the face during the theft. Many others I…

Cities get what cities vote for. If they naively vote for "good intentions" over practical policy, there's a cost to the lessons learned. The cost may exceed the value, particularly if the lessons could be called self-evident. The cost can also be ruinous (e.g. Portland, S. Francisco.). In the long view, we can hope for correction and that the philosophical observer can say, "Well, that didn't work out like we thought it would", but this is cold comfort to the victims in the intervening years and the opportunity cost for the city at large.

From the outside, the policies seem to defy all common sense. Doubling down on bad policy seems like foolishness, naivety, denial, complicity, or AOTA. When the plane's computer is saying 'terrain.', 'terrain.', at what point do you decide to pull up, and what does that even look like in Balitmore? The complexity of Baltimore's problems brings out the defeatist in anyone, but I think there are some obvious starting points.

It reminds me of C.S. Lewis's statement about progress:

"Progress means getting nearer to the place you want to be. And if you have taken a wrong turn, then to go forward does not get you any nearer.

If you are on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road; and in that case the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive man."

Nearer to what are Baltimore's leader's trying to get?

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#184

Post by jjk166 »

harimau777 wrote: post #9
alexb_ wrote: post #5

How is it Hyundai's fault that people steal cars? It's acting as if theives are some force of nature that we can't control or something. You prevent theft by putting theives in jail. It's not complicated.

Their cars omit the industry standard features to prevent someone from starting the car without a key. That makes the cars trivially easy to steal. When they purchase a car, a reasonable person would assume that the key works to the degree that is standard in the industry.

There isn't a standard they are obligated to follow for preventing someone from starting a car without a key. Just because many companies do something one way does not automatically make it reasonable to assume all will. The entire point of being able to shop around between different car manufacturers is that you may want a vehicle that does something differently. For example, if you are in a place without a lot of car thieves, maybe you'd prefer the cost savings from a cheaper, inferior anti-theft system.

Baltimore can make a standard requiring cars to have a better anti-theft system, but they haven't.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#185

Post by Convolutional »

I should point out to those not from the US that this is how Americans view the US. There is a lot of crime, the government and NGOs are on the side of the criminals etc. It is up voted to the top as well, with agreement in the replies, this is how Americans view the US.

The US incarcerates more people than China, despite China having more than four times as many people, but the view obviously is the incarceration rate needs to increase even more, as crimes are barely being prosecuted according to him. The US is off the charts in incarceration rates, but he thinks they are far too low and want them increased more, as he sees increasing incarceration even more as the solution to the problem which western Europe does not seem to have to this extent.

So those outside the US can get insights into what the US is and how it thinks from threads like this.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#186

Post by shp0ngle »

bombcar wrote: post #120
aardvarkr wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here’s a better analogy - imagine the atm manufacturer wanted to save money so they built a machine with a lock that could be pried off with a screwdriver instead of integrating security features inside the machine. This ATM would be about as trivially easy to break into as stealing a Kia/Hyundai is. Would the bank be right to pursue legal damages against the atm manufacturer for negligence?

The bank is the customer in that case, and you could argue that they could sue, based on "assumptions about contract" or whatever. Baltimore didn't buy these cars.

It endangers the public safety of Baltimore.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#187

Post by trafficante »

whitej125 wrote: post #170

I figured these Hyundai/Kia thefts using a USB cable was some techy issue... like there was a auto technicians USB port that would disable car security if it has something plugged into it. No. After 5 minutes of searching you see that a USB-A connector just happens to fit perfectly over the nub in the ignition and allows you to turn it. The problem is there is no engine immobilizer. So you can start the engine just b…

I can see why news organizations don’t want to publicize “your old phone cable is a skeleton key for Kia/Hyundai ignitions” - but it’s kind of a critical piece of information that does push this issue into the realm of manufacturer negligence imo.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#188

Post by mlazos »

Convolutional wrote: post #185

I should point out to those not from the US that this is how Americans view the US. There is a lot of crime, the government and NGOs are on the side of the criminals etc. It is up voted to the top as well, with agreement in the replies, this is how Americans view the US. The US incarcerates more people than China, despite China having more than four times as many people, but the view obviously is the incarceration ra…

I agree the US incarcerates too many people, does the comparison to China make sense? How can we trust their numbers especially when they disappear people.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#189

Post by lordloki »

Convolutional wrote: post #185

I should point out to those not from the US that this is how Americans view the US. There is a lot of crime, the government and NGOs are on the side of the criminals etc. It is up voted to the top as well, with agreement in the replies, this is how Americans view the US. The US incarcerates more people than China, despite China having more than four times as many people, but the view obviously is the incarceration ra…

China has literal concentration camps and prisoner organ harvesting. I don't think your comparison means much.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#190

Post by Zircom »

thejarren wrote: post #145
ravensfan69 wrote: post #139

I live in Baltimore, in a pretty "good" part of town where most of the young professionals and Hopkins hospital staff live. I know 4 different people who've had cars stolen in the past 24 months. In 3 of these cases the perpetrators were teenagers, and in 2 of these cases they brandished guns. Only one of these thefts were Hyundai/Kia-related, and the thief punched my buddy in the face during the theft. Many others I…

As someone who owns a Hyundai and a Kia, this is an interesting thread to read. Going to look into some safety steps moving forward.

I replaced my Hyundai badges with Toyota ones I 3D printed to fit and just completely took off the Elantra lettering
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