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The Epic Stack

epicweb.dev

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Re: The Epic Stack

#71

Post by mattgreenrocks »

maxcan wrote: post #27
tmorton wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the niche for https://tailwindui.com - which is how the Tailwind creators make money. If you're convinced by the overall Tailwind philosophy, it's a steal at the price they charge.

Personally I feel like TailwindUI is a missed opportunity. Their opposition to abstracted utility classes means that anything you want to do has incredibly long, unreadable classes. Its quite a bit of work to abstract away the bits that you want. https://daisyui.com is my absolute sweet spot for abstraction. Its a bit limited, especially compared to TwUI and flowbite but its developer experience is a joy.

DaisyUI looks great. Thanks for the rec!

Re: The Epic Stack

#72

Post by azemetre »

shados wrote: post #68
eatonphil wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you still have to be careful about folks selling training courses (or consulting services) to make sure that they aren't also glorifying complexity, even if they aren't trying to sell a product (or library or framework).

"You're wrong about the way you do unit test! Everything everyone is telling you is wrong! Fortunately, you can get my course that will clarify everything I just confused you about!!"

While I love testing-library, and have contributed to the sister libraries, one thing that always irked me is there was no empirical proof on why it was just better outside of handy wavy "because I said so."

Re: The Epic Stack

#73

Post by noahtallen »

ZephyrBlu wrote: post #34

Kent seems like a nice guy, but every piece of his writing seems to be a massive beginner trap. Experienced developers are not setting up brand new projects like this because it's massive overkill at the jump, but newbie devs who don't know better might try to.

I don’t know if I agree. For a toy project, sure, you don’t need anything at all except a static file host. However, many experienced devs aren’t going to sacrifice tools they know improve codebases when working on new projects at work, or starting something they think could turn into something bigger. It’s so much easier to have some of these tools available from the start, especially if this requires no extra work to setup (which seems to be the point of this anyways). IMO that includes linting/formatting, type safety, unit tests, observability with a dashboard and analytics, and at least very basic CI/CD. Things that I’d find hard to give up working in other code bases :)

Obviously there is going to be a huge amount of bike-shedding about what to use for X or if it’s useful; it’s basically impossible to avoid in this community. So I don’t know if that really detracts from the concept of having a stack with some solid defaults out of the box.

Personally, I might avoid the database/auth/payments related stuff at first, since that feels more subjective. However, tools like typescript, eslint, and prettier are practically industry standards.

It is still a pain in the ass to get a lot of the basics set up for different projects, so it’s nice to see some opinionated approaches to automating this. Compare to other languages like Rust, and the test runner, formatter, linter, dependency manager, and type safety are all built into the language tool chain. It’s so pleasant to not have to do any work to set that up, and I wish JS was more like that.

Re: The Epic Stack

#76

Post by steve_adams_86 »

The further I get into my career the less "stuff" I want to throw at solving problems. This is the antithesis of that attitude. It would take ages to learns the ins and outs of these dependencies, and some of them come with immense sets of complex dependencies.

I'm all for pragmatism and not reinventing wheels, but this stack looks like a juggernaut of eventual misery.

Re: The Epic Stack

#77

Post by WorldMaker »

norman784 wrote: post #52
lucasyvas wrote: post #33

Without fail, every article from Kent C. Dodds shows what appears to be total inexperience despite claims of the contrary. The advice is, at this point, almost meme worthy. There's an infamous post from 2021 (that he may have been roasted for here): https://kentcdodds.com/blog/how-i-built-a-modern-website-in-... Almost every single piece of advice is wildly overcomplicated and ridiculous. I do like some of the techno…

But the whole modern development it's a nightmare as I see, or at least the advertised modern serverless development, you need to depend on: - Some serverless hosting - Some database provider - Some auth provider - Some other service, etc In the past you just rented a simple VPS or shared hosting, setup all by yourself and have just one provider for everything, nowadays I read that auth it's very hard and you should…

Even in the good old days you still had a database provider (often PHP plus MySQL in the classic LAMP stack) and in some cases an Auth provider (especially if you consider classic tools like Wordpress and Drupal as Auth providers). (Relatedly, the advice about Auth is best "don't roll your own auth" and that doesn't mean that you have to use an Auth provider, but at least use a library vetted by others. I also tend to add "don't keep passwords in your database" because that is a [legal/accounting] liability issue [more than being "hard", though it can seem hard to do right], which does make it good advice to find a third-party Auth provider you trust if you must support password-based workflows. Luckily some new options and libraries for password-less Auth are becoming slowly more common.)

The great big irony here is just that "serverless hosting" is just an extremely silly new name for "shared hosting". The basic economics are the same: instead of paying for a whole server, pay for what you use, then share the remaining resources with other sites.

The new serverless hosts aren't just trying to replicate the "good old days" experience, in some cases they've inherited it. They've also just had the bad luck of hindsight from past shared hosting model problems: insecure FTP is dead (so there's much less of a feeling of "just copy the files over"), allowing direct crontab editing is known to be dangerous in shared hosts so serverless options need their own (often extremely custom) timed kickoff DSLs, hosting static files and application files in the same place is known to cause accidents so there's a greater separation in static hosting and serverless applications, and so forth. A lot of those same complications happened to a lot of the "classic" shared hosts, too. (Which is why many of those entrenched to specialize in known applications over time, cPanel anything you want as long as it is Wordpress or Drupal or one of the other six blog apps the host vetted. The disappearance of "shared hosting" wasn't just that modern development got complicated but that modern shared machine security got harder.)

Re: The Epic Stack

#78

Post by WorldMaker »

Colex wrote: post #31
listenallyall wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree -- tailwind is likely the fastest way to get a barely-passable design. (Certainly faster than using an external component library then realizing ones you need are only available under the paid, "premium" collection). And to say that design "just doesn't matter" while you're in fundraising mode, i think is also incorrect. You don't need perfect design, but it has to look pretty decent. It's in people's nature…

I believe a framework like Bootstrap might be a faster approach at the beginning (honestly, it's a fair approach for the whole lifecycle of a project). You get all the building blocks to get a consistent UI working fairly quick with little to no CSS knowledge. Some times removing the unnecessary flexibility may be a boost to get things out there. But, at the end of day, the best option will be the one you're most com…

Also, Bootstrap gives you plenty of copy-and-paste ready examples, including accessibility enhancements. Accessibility can be an after-thought to not just devs, but many designers, but Bootstrap helps put it right up front for the lazy developer.

Anecdotally, I've sometimes seen better quality websites for a lot of the little "polish" things like accessibility (which isn't really "polish", is it?) from the laziest "just use Bootstrap" developers than from the most hardworking Tailwind developer+designer combos.

Re: The Epic Stack

#79

Post by listenallyall »

_heimdall wrote: post #28
listenallyall wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree -- tailwind is likely the fastest way to get a barely-passable design. (Certainly faster than using an external component library then realizing ones you need are only available under the paid, "premium" collection). And to say that design "just doesn't matter" while you're in fundraising mode, i think is also incorrect. You don't need perfect design, but it has to look pretty decent. It's in people's nature…

OpenProps is on par with the developer experience of Tailwind in my opinion. The choice between the two more comes down to preference, class names as inline styles or a collection of Css variables

> 100% agree, I've always been impressed by what the projects and courses Kent puts out.

this ^^ was you, right? pardon me if I don't hold your opinion in high regard

Re: The Epic Stack

#80

Post by meterthusquite »

WorldMaker wrote: post #77
norman784 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the whole modern development it's a nightmare as I see, or at least the advertised modern serverless development, you need to depend on: - Some serverless hosting - Some database provider - Some auth provider - Some other service, etc In the past you just rented a simple VPS or shared hosting, setup all by yourself and have just one provider for everything, nowadays I read that auth it's very hard and you should…

Even in the good old days you still had a database provider (often PHP plus MySQL in the classic LAMP stack) and in some cases an Auth provider (especially if you consider classic tools like Wordpress and Drupal as Auth providers). (Relatedly, the advice about Auth is best "don't roll your own auth" and that doesn't mean that you have to use an Auth provider, but at least use a library vetted by others. I also tend t…

"Serverless" is one of those names that kinda-sorta-almost makes sense: It's that your code runs "on no server (in particular)" rather than "on no server (at all)".

Someone stripped off that nuance in trying to come up with a concise buzzphrase for code that expects ephemeral access to an arbitrary server.

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