Startups Are Scooping Up Big Tech’s Cast-Off Workers • Hacker News Board

Re: Startups Are Scooping Up Big Tech’s Cast-Off Workers

#331

Post by JohnFen » Fri, May 12, 2023, 5:01 PM UTC

tcmart14 wrote: post #196

forgotmysn wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this might have been news is like, 2009, but it's certainly not a new trend worth reporting.

Could this contribute to people's nostalgia that the past was so much better? Because they were not really getting all the news. My grandparents will swear kidnappings never happened in the 50s when they were kids. The reality is, they happened but were not reported as they are today. Does this contribute to their view of, "the wold is so much worst today!" Is the reality that, the world only seems worst, but in real…

Indeed.

Statistically speaking, in the US, high school students were much more likely to be murdered in the 1980s than now. But just try to convince today's parents of that.

Re: Startups Are Scooping Up Big Tech’s Cast-Off Workers

#332

Post by dang » Fri, May 12, 2023, 5:11 PM UTC

pb7 wrote: post #328

dang wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

No, I'll keep matching the energy I see here. This place isn't as sophisticated as you think it is.

I promise you I have never thought that HN was "sophisticated". This is an internet forum.

> I'll keep matching the energy I see here

The problem here is in the "I see". People don't see their own negative contributions clearly. We overestimate the bad that others are bringing and underestimate our own by 10x or more. This is why it always feels like the other started it and did worse [1], while we are merely reacting, defending ourselves, or (to use your word) matching. We all have this bias, which means that if all you do is match what you see, you'll in fact be escalating and worsening a downward spiral [2].

What you (I don't mean you personally, but all of us) should instead do is consciously adjust for objects in the mirror being closer than they appear [3]. That is, if you make a point of responding with less negativity than what you see others as bringing, it may be possible to partly compensate for that bias. In that case this crude and unsophisticated blob of internet humanity may at least manage not to burn itself to a crisp [4].

[1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

[2] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...

[3] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

[4] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

(I'm sorry for footnoting my own past comments - it's an embarrassing practice but it's the only easy way I have to link people to past explanations. Such links are helpful for clarifying and also for depersonalizing; they quickly make it clear that all of these issues are systemic and have been the same for years.)

Re: Startups Are Scooping Up Big Tech’s Cast-Off Workers

#333

Post by ActorNightly » Fri, May 12, 2023, 5:24 PM UTC

lillecarl wrote: post #310

ActorNightly wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In EU, you also pay for healthcare and transport, just indirectly in the form of taxes, which is why tax rates are much higher. There is a cross over point for salary in US where below that, it becomes advantageous to live in EU, but tech salaries are well above this point.

My manager moved from the US to Sweden, said he got about 60% in Sweden. His Wife isn't working in Sweden yet and they still have more money on pocket. Very anecdotal and might be inflated one way or the other. But I'm not so sure it's as clear-cut as some might think. Unless you're the top X % raking in the biggest $$

You don't have to be top X%. If you are single and graduating college, you will absolutely net more money in US in the tech sector, way more if you are exceptionally skilled.

After that, it depends on your living situation and family situation. Of course 200k in California with 3 kids and a house is likely going to be less than what you could make in EU.

Re: Startups Are Scooping Up Big Tech’s Cast-Off Workers

#334

Post by rcarmo » Fri, May 12, 2023, 7:45 PM UTC

UncleMeat wrote: post #317

rcarmo wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And they either moved to the US or are putting up with earning less than half what their US counterparts do.

Sure. But if you want to complain that europeans don't build these sorts of products as some sort of reason why they should expect lower pay, you need to engage with the fact that people living and working in europe are building these products.

That's not happening on equal terms.

Re: Startups Are Scooping Up Big Tech’s Cast-Off Workers

#335

Post by iancmceachern » Fri, May 12, 2023, 11:48 PM UTC

adave wrote: post #305

iancmceachern wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not paying the premium for health insurance, no. But I am paying 200 a month to upgrade to "platinum", I'm paying 400 a month because Blue Shield lists a lifesaving medicine I've been on for 2 decades as a tier 3 drug, so I had to battle with them for 3 weeks to get them to "cover" it at 400 a month out of my pocket. I then have a 4k per family deductible we need to reach on top of the drug co-pays. So when my wi…

QoL in Europe is way better than US.Labor laws and life in general is better even with the lower pay as its all relative.

Agreed, I think all those things amount to less stress, less stress to just exist as a regular human.

Re: Startups Are Scooping Up Big Tech’s Cast-Off Workers

#336

Post by zamnos » Sat, May 13, 2023, 12:41 AM UTC

achow wrote: post #301

idopmstuff wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm a PM and I think veeerrrryyy few people understand this, including many of my fellow PMs. Preach. And the universe of people who can actually do the work to start something and get it to PMF is a pretty small subset of those who understand the concepts in theory.

I would even go further and say that those who don't understand Product Market Fit but still can build, learn PMF by stumbling, falling. Same sports analogy- it is better to be someone who can play (but doesn't know the rules) than someone who has encyclopedic knowledge on the said sport but cannot play (physical limitations).

What do you mean by "better"? There's room for lots of people to have jobs off the field. Think about all of the support staff we never see on TV during the game. Or off the field even during the game. The announcer/sports commentator, the coach, the physical therapists and doctors, the people that work the grounds. Stephen Curry doesn't work in vacuum and neither does Jeff Dean.

Re: Startups Are Scooping Up Big Tech’s Cast-Off Workers

#337

Post by zamnos » Sat, May 13, 2023, 12:43 AM UTC

nicenewtemp84 wrote: post #167

burnte wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies this profitable and large often actually overhire a small degree to deny the competition talent and to give a layer of people that can be laid off to boost profits quickly to make a board think management is good. Google or FB can lay off 5k people and not even NOTICE a change in productivity, but the boards eat it up.

They might hire to scoop people up, but when they fire, don't they fire based on performance? Or is it purely a random pick?

That's what you, as an engineer would do if you were to do layoffs starting from first principles, but that's not who's doing the layoffs.

Re: Startups Are Scooping Up Big Tech’s Cast-Off Workers

#338

Post by j0hnyl » Sat, May 13, 2023, 3:23 AM UTC

_vbnz wrote: post #29

American engineers are lucky to earn enough to be able to save up and do stuff like this, like on $200k you can save enough to really try a start-up for a year or two. Whereas in Europe we're lucky to get $80k in the same jobs, and then the state steals half of that :/

State steals half of ours here in the USA too if you live in a high cost of living city, which many well paid devs do.

Re: Startups Are Scooping Up Big Tech’s Cast-Off Workers

#339

Post by j0hnyl » Sat, May 13, 2023, 3:26 AM UTC

RestlessMind wrote: post #88

ant6n wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In France, apparently you can go on unemployment for 2, up to 3 years to start a startup. With up to 80% pay. In Germany you can get 6 months of unemployment insurance when starting a startup out of unemployment. Or get 6 months paid when starting a startup out of Uni. Then you could get various public funding opportunities like a startup bonus (for example 50K public funding for 50K private investment in an innovati…

> In France, apparently you can go on unemployment for 2, up to 3 years to start a startup. With up to 80% pay. Then why does France have such a low rate of new business formation (5.3/1000 people) - https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/IC.BUS.NDNS.ZS?most_rec... Or as another indicator, number of tech startups per Million is 234 for the US, while only 24 for France - https://www.startupranking.com/countries

Because in France, in order to hire someone you need to have a shit ton of cash on hand... and then if they suck, you can't just fire them. It's too expensive to start a venture, so the folks that are willing to risk it leave in order to do so.

Re: Startups Are Scooping Up Big Tech’s Cast-Off Workers

#340

Post by thephyber » Sat, May 13, 2023, 8:41 AM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #236

thephyber wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are making similar logical errors. You speak as if the most recent layoffs were simply firing the lazy employees. AFAICT, companies are both jettisoning entire departments related to bad bets (or bad business models) and preparing for anticipated recession-level revenues. Skills are not perfectly fungible. Managers making layoff decisions based on the roles/skills they need to keep and what budget they can afford…

A lot of people seem to imagine layoffs happening (or that they should happen) according to some well-calibrated stack ranking at the company level. But that's not typical at all. Sure some employees on PIPs or otherwise considered low performance may be cut regardless of role. But more typically projects get cut/defunded (whether in engineering or elsewhere) and those roles are eliminated or cut back. A good perform…

I sometimes wonder if the people who think companies are perfectly optimal have ever worked in a company or large organization.

It reminds me a bit of the argument against massive conspiracies to demonstrate how many people have to perfectly as an organization (leaving no evidence behind) and then have to stay quiet indefinitely. The larger the accused conspiracy, the more likely information is to leak.