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Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

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Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#81

Post by deanmoriarty »

gabereiser wrote: post #27
deanmoriarty wrote: post #13

I am doing my part by deciding not to have kids: imagine the incredible amount of resources I just saved with my decision. Thousands of chickens, dozens of cows, pounds and pounds of fertilizers, etc. All this without causing any pain or suffering.

This is the kind of forward thinking we need. The issue is explained, in great detail, what happens in the future in the documentary called “Idiocracy” by the prophet Mike Judge.

I do respect your opinion, but having kids just because "less smart" people would be having kids anyway is, in my humble opinion, the perfect example of a tragedy of the commons situation, where the resource at play is our scarce planet.

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#82

Post by renewiltord »

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #72
renewiltord wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real difference will be made by abolishing Europe's cities and returning that entire continent to Nature. All the forests and animals should be restored and the cities razed. Extant emissions from the people there dwarf the Amazon's deforestation so it's a much better fix.

Whatever biodiversity (and therefore whatever resilience) was lost by the destruction of Europe's forests is gone forever. There are important species in the Amazon that can still be saved.

That's fair. Europe should therefore pay Earth Reparations to those who have the opportunity to preserve the Earth. While Europe cannot afford to make good, she can try to hit the market clearing price to keep the Amazon unperturbed. This will likely be a debt never successfully paid, but sufficient hundreds of billions every year will likely work.

What we need is a Green Treaty of Versailles.

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#83

Post by gabereiser »

deanmoriarty wrote: post #81
gabereiser wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the kind of forward thinking we need. The issue is explained, in great detail, what happens in the future in the documentary called “Idiocracy” by the prophet Mike Judge.

I do respect your opinion, but having kids just because "less smart" people would be having kids anyway is, in my humble opinion, the perfect example of a tragedy of the commons situation, where the resource at play is our scarce planet.

Not my opinion, it’s exactly what will happen. Unless the whole world decides to do birth control, which isn’t likely seeing that half the USA just made abortion illegal. They’re making it happen right now.

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#84

Post by oh_sigh »

deanmoriarty wrote: post #13

I am doing my part by deciding not to have kids: imagine the incredible amount of resources I just saved with my decision. Thousands of chickens, dozens of cows, pounds and pounds of fertilizers, etc. All this without causing any pain or suffering.

The problem is that thoughtful people like you should be having kids and raising them to be thoughtful like yourself.

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#85

Post by myshpa »

MadSudaca wrote: post #43
myshpa wrote: post #7

One of the leading reasons why we're in such deep mess are our systems of food production, esp. animal agriculture (75% of agriculture lands, uses more land than forests) & fishing. - The majority of deforestation (particularly in the Amazon), is driven by livestock farming. By reducing demand for animal products, we could slow or even reverse the trend of habitat destruction, thus preserving biodiversity. - Growing…

> Growing plants to feed animals and then consuming those animals is an inefficient way of obtaining calories and nutrients. Shifting to a plant-based diet would allow us to feed more people with less land, reducing the pressure on wild habitats. Regarding this point, it's important to remember that animals have the ability to transform materials we can't get any sustenance from, because they're not edible, into food…

> Regarding this point ... they eat the pig.

I'm aware. Not necessary in 21st century (in most of the world).

> proteins coming from vegetables are low quality

Protein "quality" relates to the presence of essential amino acids. Animal proteins contain all nine essential amino acids and are thus considered "complete."

Plant proteins often lack one or more essential amino acids. However, they aren't "low quality" - you just need to consume a variety of plant proteins (like legumes, nuts, seeds, whole grains) to get all the essential amino acids.

This process is called protein combining. As long as you're eating a varied diet throughout the day, your body can assemble the necessary amino acids. Plus, plant proteins provide other nutritional benefits like fiber and antioxidants (as opposed to inflamation-inducing effects of meat and dairy).

> Friends who maintain a vegan diet for ideological reasons have to supplement it with a heavy dose of pills ...

Also not true - only B12 is necessary. It's often a part of animal feed anyway, so why not skip the intermediary.

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#86

Post by fsflover »

deanmoriarty wrote: post #81
gabereiser wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the kind of forward thinking we need. The issue is explained, in great detail, what happens in the future in the documentary called “Idiocracy” by the prophet Mike Judge.

I do respect your opinion, but having kids just because "less smart" people would be having kids anyway is, in my humble opinion, the perfect example of a tragedy of the commons situation, where the resource at play is our scarce planet.

Alternatively, you spend your life helping and teaching other children, which could even result in better outcomes than only caring about your own ones.

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#87

Post by yesfitz »

MadSudaca wrote: post #43
myshpa wrote: post #7

One of the leading reasons why we're in such deep mess are our systems of food production, esp. animal agriculture (75% of agriculture lands, uses more land than forests) & fishing. - The majority of deforestation (particularly in the Amazon), is driven by livestock farming. By reducing demand for animal products, we could slow or even reverse the trend of habitat destruction, thus preserving biodiversity. - Growing…

> Growing plants to feed animals and then consuming those animals is an inefficient way of obtaining calories and nutrients. Shifting to a plant-based diet would allow us to feed more people with less land, reducing the pressure on wild habitats. Regarding this point, it's important to remember that animals have the ability to transform materials we can't get any sustenance from, because they're not edible, into food…

To your second point, we'll agree that a plant-based diet with supplements is feasible for human health.

Your first point is misleading because we currently grow a lot of food to feed animals to eat, and clear out forests to make pasture. - "More than three-quarters (77%) of soy is used as feed for livestock."[1] - "Seventy per cent of formerly forested land in the Amazon, and 91% of land deforested since 1970, is used for livestock pasture."[2] - 38.7% of Corn produced in the US is for livestock feed.[3]

1: https://ourworldindata.org/soy#:~:text=More%20than%20three%2.... 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deforestation_in_Brazil#Rates:.... 3: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/visualizing-the-uses-of-cor...

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#88

Post by __MatrixMan__ »

renewiltord wrote: post #82
__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatever biodiversity (and therefore whatever resilience) was lost by the destruction of Europe's forests is gone forever. There are important species in the Amazon that can still be saved.

That's fair. Europe should therefore pay Earth Reparations to those who have the opportunity to preserve the Earth. While Europe cannot afford to make good, she can try to hit the market clearing price to keep the Amazon unperturbed. This will likely be a debt never successfully paid, but sufficient hundreds of billions every year will likely work. What we need is a Green Treaty of Versailles.

Materially, helping is helping whatever the reason. But rhetoric matters. You're going to get a lot more participation if you're trying to make the world a liveable place for the children being born right now, and a lot less participation if you're trying to get people to pay off a debt taken out by their ancestors.

Thinking in terms of money and debt is what got us into this situation. I'm doubtful that it will get us out of it.

In fact, turning our backs on the logic of the market is probably part of the fix. We need a jubilee so that the people made powerful by causing these problems aren't powerful anymore.

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#89

Post by 0xBombadilo »

myshpa wrote: post #61
0xBombadilo wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Growing plants to feed animals and then consuming those animals is an inefficient way of obtaining calories and nutrients. Shifting to a plant-based diet would allow us to feed more people with less land, reducing the pressure on wild habitats. Not true. Ruminant grazing animals (like cows) use land that generally is not fit for farming plants that humans would consume. They make land productive that otherwise would…

Wow. > grazing animals use land that generally is not fit for farming plants ... make land productive that otherwise would not be Not every land has to be "productive". This thinking got us where we are. > In order to farm soy beans or whatever plant you eat, you have to tear up the soil and in doing so you will kill every ground squirrel, ground nesting bird ... Crop fields do indeed disrupt the habitats of wild ani…

This is your brain on veganism. You have no concept of how cattle are actually raised. They are grazed on grassland. No farmer is cultivating food plots of soy beans and bringing them to the cattle. You are thinking of feedlots which cattle go to before slaughter where they are fed corn or soy for a short period of time in order to fatten them up. The existence of a feedlot does not change the fact that for the vast majority of the animal's life it is on a grassland eating grass that would otherwise just grow and die in the winter. The vast majority of the energy that goes into growing cattle would otherwise go completely unused without them. That is why ruminants are special. They turn grass into protein, which is necessary for life, especially brain function. You just want to eat your disgusting soyburger and treat it as some kind of penance so you can then parade around as if you are morally better than people who eat meat. Sorry, we will never stop eating meat and you will never acknowledge the reality that ruminant grazing is good for the environment. You will never consider why there were tens of millions of ruminant bison covering North America for thousands of years. They were a tool of the balance of nature that helped the ecosystem. Keep killing small animals and pretending you're better than everyone else. It will work out really great for you.

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#90

Post by 0xBombadilo »

Timon3 wrote: post #54
0xBombadilo wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Growing plants to feed animals and then consuming those animals is an inefficient way of obtaining calories and nutrients. Shifting to a plant-based diet would allow us to feed more people with less land, reducing the pressure on wild habitats. Not true. Ruminant grazing animals (like cows) use land that generally is not fit for farming plants that humans would consume. They make land productive that otherwise would…

>> Growing plants to feed animals and then consuming those animals is an inefficient way of obtaining calories and nutrients. Shifting to a plant-based diet would allow us to feed more people with less land, reducing the pressure on wild habitats. > Not true. Ruminant grazing animals (like cows) use land that generally is not fit for farming plants that humans would consume. You are arguing a different point from GP.…

GP doesn't understand how cattle ranching works.
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