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Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

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Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#61
post #7

One of the leading reasons why we're in such deep mess are our systems of food production, esp. animal agriculture (75% of agriculture lands, uses more land than forests) & fishing. - The majority of deforestation (particularly in the Amazon), is driven by livestock farming. By reducing demand for animal products, we could slow or even reverse the trend of habitat destruction, thus preserving biodiversity. - Growing…

>Growing plants to feed animals and then consuming those animals is an inefficient way of obtaining calories and nutrients. Shifting to a plant-based diet would allow us to feed more people with less land, reducing the pressure on wild habitats. Not true. Ruminant grazing animals (like cows) use land that generally is not fit for farming plants that humans would consume. They make land productive that otherwise would…

Wow.

> grazing animals use land that generally is not fit for farming plants ... make land productive that otherwise would not be

Not every land has to be "productive". This thinking got us where we are.

> In order to farm soy beans or whatever plant you eat, you have to tear up the soil and in doing so you will kill every ground squirrel, ground nesting bird ...

Crop fields do indeed disrupt the habitats of wild animals, and wild animals are also killed when harvesting plants. However, this point makes the case for a plant-based diet and not against it, since many more plants are required to produce a measure of animal flesh for food (often as high as 12:1) than are required to produce an equal measure of plants for food (which is obviously 1:1). Because of this, a plant-based diet causes less suffering and death than one that includes animals.

https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/vegans-kill-animals-too

> Then you have to spray chemical pesticides that will annihilate anything

Dtto.

> Not to mention ruminant grazers enhance the soil through their compaction, manure and urine

Use compost / compost tea / companion / nitrogen fixing plants.

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#62
post #7

One of the leading reasons why we're in such deep mess are our systems of food production, esp. animal agriculture (75% of agriculture lands, uses more land than forests) & fishing. - The majority of deforestation (particularly in the Amazon), is driven by livestock farming. By reducing demand for animal products, we could slow or even reverse the trend of habitat destruction, thus preserving biodiversity. - Growing…

>Growing plants to feed animals and then consuming those animals is an inefficient way of obtaining calories and nutrients. Shifting to a plant-based diet would allow us to feed more people with less land, reducing the pressure on wild habitats. Not true. Ruminant grazing animals (like cows) use land that generally is not fit for farming plants that humans would consume. They make land productive that otherwise would…

Ruminant grazing on natural grasslands is not sufficient to meet the demand for meat. This is why chunks of the Amazon are burned down to create more land for raising livestock. And raising crops for people is much more efficient (in terms of calories per acre) than raising those same crops for animals. Any arguments highlighting the destructive effects of industrial crop farming apply ~10x for meat since much of the meat we eat is raised on soy and other feed crops.

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would rather humanity have a bloody war that wipes out 90% of us than live the miserable life you have described. My life does not fit within walking distance of a 110m2 box.

That's weird. I grew up in a big house and my parents had plenty of cars, meat and travel, but I wasn't particularly happy. I'm happier now in my small apartment. I don't really understand how a big house will make you happy. Really, doing electronics is more fun in a hacker space than at home, and you can always go to a park.

That's nice that a very spartan lifestyle is good for you.

The house doesn't make me happy.

Not hearing my neighbors music blasting through the floor at 2am makes me happy.

Not hearing my neighbors screaming at each other every day makes me happy

Being able to paint my walls any color I want makes me happy.

Having a plot of land I can dig up and plant stuff on or build a workshop on makes me happy.

Having a place that is my own that I can do basically anything I want with makes me happy.

Renting apartments is shit. Even condos, which you own on paper but cannot just do whatever you like with, sucks.

Hacker spaces don't exist everywhere by the way, and the ones I have been to sucked.

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

true. all humans should stop having kids. imagine the environmental savings. then earth can finally heal

If everyone stopped, at some point it would become environmentally feasible (by some metric, I'm sure) to have offsprings again, in which case I would certainly amend my decision (clearly hypothetical, because I wouldn't be alive anymore by then). It's the same non-sense argument of "imagine if everyone invested in index funds". It cannot happen, because at some point the right arbitrage opportunity becomes too obvio…

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Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would rather humanity have a bloody war that wipes out 90% of us than live the miserable life you have described. My life does not fit within walking distance of a 110m2 box.

Stop and think about that for just a second... (As an aside, it seems a lot of people unwittingly are making this choice which I find both curious and very depressing)

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Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#66
post #7

One of the leading reasons why we're in such deep mess are our systems of food production, esp. animal agriculture (75% of agriculture lands, uses more land than forests) & fishing. - The majority of deforestation (particularly in the Amazon), is driven by livestock farming. By reducing demand for animal products, we could slow or even reverse the trend of habitat destruction, thus preserving biodiversity. - Growing…

>Growing plants to feed animals and then consuming those animals is an inefficient way of obtaining calories and nutrients. Shifting to a plant-based diet would allow us to feed more people with less land, reducing the pressure on wild habitats. Not true. Ruminant grazing animals (like cows) use land that generally is not fit for farming plants that humans would consume. They make land productive that otherwise would…

> They make land productive that otherwise would not be.

Productive according to our fictions re: "value", destructive according to the ecology of systems that we rely on for survival.

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#67
post #47
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think lots of people care but nobody knows what to do.

There are essentially three not entirely disjoint options. 1) Sacrifice yourself for the good of the whole. 2) Take advantage of those who sacrifice themselves for the good of the whole. 3) Nobody sacrifices and it's thunderdome time and the losers starve.

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Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#68

Does anyone have a realistic comment that isn’t some Malthusian doomerism? There must be a solution to this problem besides drastically curtailing people’s lifestyle, even if it involves technologies that aren’t quite here yet like genetic engineering, space travel and fusion power.

Why "must" there be a solution like that? It's wild how when it comes to the biggest problems, people will say "let's not be so emotional about this" and then produce suggestions borne exclusively of their emotional coping mechanism.

Because we'll see government propaganda encouraging us to carpool or meet remotely to reduce emissions. And then we'll see this shit[0], which dwarfs whatever contribution we could have made by carpooling and it becomes rapidly clear that our individual contributions do nothing.

Also, 2020 should have been a huge reversal of emissions fortune with the low amount of travel and recreation. If 2020 didn't make a dent in climate change, then you're never going to convince me that individual contributions can accomplish anything.

[0]https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/ghost-flights-pandemic-gr...

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would rather humanity have a bloody war that wipes out 90% of us than live the miserable life you have described. My life does not fit within walking distance of a 110m2 box.

Do you, like most I've encountered who hold similar views, see this position as a testament to your courage and resilience?

No, I am fully aware I'd most likely be in the 90% that died and if I did live I probably wouldn't enjoy life much after because it would be incredibly hard.

I am expressing that I would rather die than live in the miserable, joyless sounding purgatory that was described.

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#70
post #3

There’s a mass extinction happening and no one seems to care. We may see a complete collapse of the ecosystem in the next 30 years.

I think lots of people care but nobody knows what to do.

A lot of people care but can't make a huge impact. A few people could make a huge impact but don't care (or worse, want to worsen things for short-term profits).
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