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Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

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Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#31

Post by truckerbill »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #19
timthelion wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that if everyone gave up air travel, individual automobile transport, and meat and dairy and lived in a max 110m2 apartment you could say that. But it seems that there are a lot of people who simply don't care.

I would rather humanity have a bloody war that wipes out 90% of us than live the miserable life you have described. My life does not fit within walking distance of a 110m2 box.

Stop and think about that for just a second...

(As an aside, it seems a lot of people unwittingly are making this choice which I find both curious and very depressing)

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#32

Post by PeterisP »

renewiltord wrote: post #10
myshpa wrote: post #7

One of the leading reasons why we're in such deep mess are our systems of food production, esp. animal agriculture (75% of agriculture lands, uses more land than forests) & fishing. - The majority of deforestation (particularly in the Amazon), is driven by livestock farming. By reducing demand for animal products, we could slow or even reverse the trend of habitat destruction, thus preserving biodiversity. - Growing…

The real difference will be made by abolishing Europe's cities and returning that entire continent to Nature. All the forests and animals should be restored and the cities razed. Extant emissions from the people there dwarf the Amazon's deforestation so it's a much better fix.

Europe has been and still is re-foresting, it's much more forested than 100 or 300 years ago, and in the last 30 years there has been a 9% increase in forested areas (https://resoilfoundation.org/en/environment/eu-forests-growt...)

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#33

Post by timthelion »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #19
timthelion wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that if everyone gave up air travel, individual automobile transport, and meat and dairy and lived in a max 110m2 apartment you could say that. But it seems that there are a lot of people who simply don't care.

I would rather humanity have a bloody war that wipes out 90% of us than live the miserable life you have described. My life does not fit within walking distance of a 110m2 box.

That's weird. I grew up in a big house and my parents had plenty of cars, meat and travel, but I wasn't particularly happy. I'm happier now in my small apartment. I don't really understand how a big house will make you happy. Really, doing electronics is more fun in a hacker space than at home, and you can always go to a park.

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#34

Post by timthelion »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #19
timthelion wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that if everyone gave up air travel, individual automobile transport, and meat and dairy and lived in a max 110m2 apartment you could say that. But it seems that there are a lot of people who simply don't care.

I would rather humanity have a bloody war that wipes out 90% of us than live the miserable life you have described. My life does not fit within walking distance of a 110m2 box.

Doesn't that suggest that India should go to war with the world? I'm pretty sure that 110m2 is pretty luxurious for most people on earth.

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#35

Post by 0xBombadilo »

myshpa wrote: post #7

One of the leading reasons why we're in such deep mess are our systems of food production, esp. animal agriculture (75% of agriculture lands, uses more land than forests) & fishing. - The majority of deforestation (particularly in the Amazon), is driven by livestock farming. By reducing demand for animal products, we could slow or even reverse the trend of habitat destruction, thus preserving biodiversity. - Growing…

>Growing plants to feed animals and then consuming those animals is an inefficient way of obtaining calories and nutrients. Shifting to a plant-based diet would allow us to feed more people with less land, reducing the pressure on wild habitats.

Not true. Ruminant grazing animals (like cows) use land that generally is not fit for farming plants that humans would consume. They make land productive that otherwise would not be. Also, farming for the staples of plant-based diets annihilates animal life. In order to farm soy beans or whatever plant you eat, you have to tear up the soil and in doing so you will kill every ground squirrel, ground nesting bird, snake, vole, groundhog and rabbit that lives in that plot. Then you have to spray chemical pesticides that will annihilate anything you haven't already mechanically killed with the combine. Not to mention ruminant grazers enhance the soil through their compaction, manure and urine while plant farming has to constantly add external fertilizer to maintain yields.

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#36

Post by User23 »

What's the baseline though? My understanding is that wild animals have always died in droves, which is why the make a ton of offspring reproductive strategy is so popular.

That's not to downplay the impact of habitat loss and other factors, but if say for example 40% of bird randomly get themselves killed every year then the marginal increase in deaths from wind power looks very different than if they don't.

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#37

Post by [deleted] »

throwaway1777 wrote: post #23

Does anyone have a realistic comment that isn’t some Malthusian doomerism? There must be a solution to this problem besides drastically curtailing people’s lifestyle, even if it involves technologies that aren’t quite here yet like genetic engineering, space travel and fusion power.

[deleted]

Re: Animals Are Dying in Droves. What Are They Telling Us?

#40

Post by dmbche »

throwaway1777 wrote: post #23

Does anyone have a realistic comment that isn’t some Malthusian doomerism? There must be a solution to this problem besides drastically curtailing people’s lifestyle, even if it involves technologies that aren’t quite here yet like genetic engineering, space travel and fusion power.

Not really - you come with the presupposition that our way of life is right and should supersede nature - that's nit how that works. We're supposed to adapt to earth, not the other way around (big surprise, humans are not able to control the environnement - you can look at how fisheries are organised for a look at where we are going - claiming sustainability while fish stocks are plumetting
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