Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts • Hacker News Board

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#41

Post by PedroBatista » Fri, May 12, 2023, 1:57 PM UTC

alexb_ wrote: post #5

How is it Hyundai's fault that people steal cars? It's acting as if theives are some force of nature that we can't control or something. You prevent theft by putting theives in jail. It's not complicated.

Please read the article before commenting.

Yes, "You prevent theft by putting thieves in jail." But it's actually complicated if you adopt a realistic stance other than "I want to speak with the manager".

The part that's Hyundai's fault is both the ridiculously easy to steal a car BUT also they dragged their feet when asked to address the issue and didn't do anything other than telling police and local governments "Wait for the next model in a couple of years"

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#42

Post by ericmcer » Fri, May 12, 2023, 1:58 PM UTC

digdugdirk wrote: post #21

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #4

Imagine if a city sued homeowners because it’s their fault for calling the police after a break-in, because they used a deadbolt that failed the LockPickingLawyer. This is about equally as sane. Yes, yes, I know that Hyundai and Kia vehicles are easy pickings, but they talk as though “those vehicles are easy to steal, so those teenagers, they just felt so compelled to…” Nobody forces somebody to steal a car. If anti-…

This situation is more like a deadbolt with a cover that could be pried off with your fingers, and then could be opened by any key shaped object once the cover is off. Maybe to put in software terms - a login page that allowed anyone to sign in to any account by viewing source and finding an admin login button sitting there for anyone to see. It truly is a flawed design. Yes, a design that might not be flawed for man…

Of those two the second struck me as an example of someone who should expect to be victimized.

It is funny how conditioned we are to assume people online will be as malicious as we allow them to be.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#43

Post by gjsman-1000 » Fri, May 12, 2023, 1:58 PM UTC

klodolph wrote: post #26

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #4

Imagine if a city sued homeowners because it’s their fault for calling the police after a break-in, because they used a deadbolt that failed the LockPickingLawyer. This is about equally as sane. Yes, yes, I know that Hyundai and Kia vehicles are easy pickings, but they talk as though “those vehicles are easy to steal, so those teenagers, they just felt so compelled to…” Nobody forces somebody to steal a car. If anti-…

LockPickingLawyer is highly skilled, and can defeat locks that most others can’t. This is like selling one of those old Kryptonite locks that could be defeated with a Bic pen. At that point, the lock is truly defective, and should be pulled from the market. Your lock should require something more than a readily-available, vaguely key-shaped object to operate—so if you can operate the lock with a Bic pen (like the old…

True, I agree, but here is the thing: There is no federal standard requiring fancy anti-theft equipment.

Baltimore is quite literally suing because two manufacturers aren’t doing what other manufacturers do, because it would be more convenient for them, despite there being no rule requiring such technology.

That’s a slippery slope. For heaven’s sake let’s make a rule, but trying to sue a manufacturer for not doing what other manufacturers do in absence of a law seems dangerous.

Let’s say Tesla and Ford start requiring all auto parts to be digitally paired, to “prevent theft,” so parts are not interchangeable. If this case succeeds, any automaker who doesn’t do that could be found liable.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#44

Post by shagie » Fri, May 12, 2023, 1:59 PM UTC

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #14

endisneigh wrote: post #12

even after reading the article this lawsuit makes no sense. inherently a car that can easily be repaired can easily be stolen. the implication is that Baltimore does not want cars that can easily be modified so they cannot easily be stolen. troubling to say the least. then again, baltimore isn't exactly the pinnacle of governance. take the iphone for example, which are notoriously difficult to use if stolen. the resu…

Right? Why don’t we all have our catalytic converters digitally paired with the Engine Control Unit iPhone-style? Is it the manufacturer’s fault for not doing that? Heck, just like an iPhone, let’s have all parts on a car from the headlamps to the door handles to the mirrors digitally paired together. That would stop theft, and any car maker who doesn’t do it is encouraging theft.

That doesn't quite follow as the catalytic converter is melted down for its metals rather than used as is.

As to "all the parts on a car paired" - there is VIN etching. https://www.allstate.com/resources/allstate/attachments/tool...

The audio system has some semblance of paring.

Though with he KIA, this is more often dealing with use (e.g. joy riding) of the car rather than reselling it.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#45

Post by hgsgm » Fri, May 12, 2023, 1:59 PM UTC

ericmcer wrote: post #25

hardware2win wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider reading the article The concerns are valid >Certain Kia or Hyundai models can be stolen using a screwdriver and a USB charging cord. >Cleveland, St. Louis and Seattle are among the other cities that started suing the the car companies earlier this year. Baltimore’s lawsuit says the companies “failed to keep up with industry standards,” and claim it was a result of business decisions made to reduce costs and…

Are the spikes of car thefts similar across all cities? Every large city has Kia and Hyundais, you would think this would be a nationwide phenomenon.

There's a good article about that; it was recent posted on HN:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35915492

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#46

Post by HillRat » Fri, May 12, 2023, 1:59 PM UTC

aardvarkr wrote: post #8

Lots of comments that didn’t read the article so here’s a good excerpt on why there’s a lawsuit. Baltimore’s lawsuit says the companies “failed to keep up with industry standards,” and claim it was a result of business decisions made to reduce costs and boost profits “notwithstanding decades of academic literature and research supporting the deterrent effects” of anti-theft technology. “The dramatically increased rat…

These lawsuits are part of a longstanding effort by cities and states to try and develop a theory of manufacturer legal accountability through public nuisance law, an effort that is perhaps morally laudable but legally fraught; to date, other than a few outlier environmental cases from the '70s, courts have almost uniformly declined to create a kind of parallel product-liability law through nuisance. While individual car owners have legal recourse through traditional product liability and negligence routes, hard to see these cases succeeding in court; on the other hand, they do create some additional political pressure on Hyundai/Kia to take more responsibility, which is ultimately where the tobacco lawsuits in the '90s ended up -- not winning at the bench, but at the conference table.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#47

Post by harimau777 » Fri, May 12, 2023, 1:59 PM UTC

ericmcer wrote: post #25

hardware2win wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider reading the article The concerns are valid >Certain Kia or Hyundai models can be stolen using a screwdriver and a USB charging cord. >Cleveland, St. Louis and Seattle are among the other cities that started suing the the car companies earlier this year. Baltimore’s lawsuit says the companies “failed to keep up with industry standards,” and claim it was a result of business decisions made to reduce costs and…

Are the spikes of car thefts similar across all cities? Every large city has Kia and Hyundais, you would think this would be a nationwide phenomenon.

I know that they are also common in Milwaukee.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#48

Post by oatmeal1 » Fri, May 12, 2023, 2:00 PM UTC

Of all the entities that could be blamed, it's not the jails that create recidivists, it's not the law enforcement that fails to intervene before serious crimes are committed, and it's not the schools that are raising delinquents.

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#49

Post by endisneigh » Fri, May 12, 2023, 2:00 PM UTC

klodolph wrote: post #26

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #4

Imagine if a city sued homeowners because it’s their fault for calling the police after a break-in, because they used a deadbolt that failed the LockPickingLawyer. This is about equally as sane. Yes, yes, I know that Hyundai and Kia vehicles are easy pickings, but they talk as though “those vehicles are easy to steal, so those teenagers, they just felt so compelled to…” Nobody forces somebody to steal a car. If anti-…

LockPickingLawyer is highly skilled, and can defeat locks that most others can’t. This is like selling one of those old Kryptonite locks that could be defeated with a Bic pen. At that point, the lock is truly defective, and should be pulled from the market. Your lock should require something more than a readily-available, vaguely key-shaped object to operate—so if you can operate the lock with a Bic pen (like the old…

i deeply disagree with this line of thought. why is the onus on the manufacturer here, instead of going after the thieves?

Re: Baltimore sues Hyundai, Kia over spike in car thefts

#50

Post by taffronaut » Fri, May 12, 2023, 2:00 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #12

even after reading the article this lawsuit makes no sense. inherently a car that can easily be repaired can easily be stolen. the implication is that Baltimore does not want cars that can easily be modified so they cannot easily be stolen. troubling to say the least. then again, baltimore isn't exactly the pinnacle of governance. take the iphone for example, which are notoriously difficult to use if stolen. the resu…

I don't follow the reasoning that inherently easily repairable cars are easily stolen. Cars have shipped for decades with steering and in some cases transmission locks. These required physical key and programmed fob to be present in order to start and drive. Security was down to the quality of the engineering of those components. I don't see how it hampered modification to or ability to repair the rest of the car.