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Pharo 11

pharo.org

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Re: Pharo 11

#91

I got curious, downloaded and installed it on my computer. Checked the docs, and the next step was to download a stable image. Downloaded 11 (stable) and started it. Then blank stare to screen! What should I do? Lots of things to click on, and no text editor.. Searched for a tutorial on the website, and found nothing! I don't want to spend 30 minutes to look at some random videos of Virtual Reality in Thames or whate…

Because Pharo is an environment and tool designed and built by those who want to build Pharo. While there are certainly folks doing other things in it, the Pharo project focuses on the problems of improving the Pharo project to make it easier to develop Pharo. As with many OSS projects, the developers are there to scratch their itches, which is Pharo, not just random programming projects. You'd like to think that the…

Then take a look at Cuis-Smalltalk.

https://github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/Learning-Cuis/blob/master/...

Re: Pharo 11

#92
post #33

So, is Cuis Smalltalk left behind? For a while it seemed to maybe be the path forward for a lean, Free Smalltalk? https://cuis.st/

Pharo is anything but lean, so I don't think their relative merits have changed at all.

Re: Pharo 11

#93

I got curious, downloaded and installed it on my computer. Checked the docs, and the next step was to download a stable image. Downloaded 11 (stable) and started it. Then blank stare to screen! What should I do? Lots of things to click on, and no text editor.. Searched for a tutorial on the website, and found nothing! I don't want to spend 30 minutes to look at some random videos of Virtual Reality in Thames or whate…

Yeah I did the same the other night - same experience. It’s like releasing a modern game and expecting players to read the manual to learn how to play. We know how to effectively teach users to use - there’s an entire field of study devoted to usability and accessibility. I don’t have time to waste on something that ignores the last 40 years of progress in that realm.

What's to say they have "something" to waste on making a foolproof way of getting started for people who aren't even curious?

They're not selling a product here, they're releasing software they've written in their own spare time. If you can't spare 30 minutes for running through the tutorial, why should they spend more time catering to you rather than spending it on more interesting problems?

Re: Pharo 11

#94

I got curious, downloaded and installed it on my computer. Checked the docs, and the next step was to download a stable image. Downloaded 11 (stable) and started it. Then blank stare to screen! What should I do? Lots of things to click on, and no text editor.. Searched for a tutorial on the website, and found nothing! I don't want to spend 30 minutes to look at some random videos of Virtual Reality in Thames or whate…

I would not try to compare pharo with the usual mainstream ways. It's a different world. There's a very very good mooc to explain various aspects of both language and environment/culture. It's really worth a try (and I say that after hearing a lot of high praises about Smalltalk, I wasn't disappointed)

Re: Pharo 11

#95

I got curious, downloaded and installed it on my computer. Checked the docs, and the next step was to download a stable image. Downloaded 11 (stable) and started it. Then blank stare to screen! What should I do? Lots of things to click on, and no text editor.. Searched for a tutorial on the website, and found nothing! I don't want to spend 30 minutes to look at some random videos of Virtual Reality in Thames or whate…

Well, they're consistent at least. It was exactly the same when I first tried Pharo, at version 2.something IIRC. Same in Pharo 5, 7, 9 (increments of 2 purely coincidental) and now with 11.

I love Smalltalk. The language is great, incredibly powerful even though it rests on just a few simple concepts. The design and architecture of some of Smalltalk libraries is marvelous and should be made into UNESCO world heritage site for OOP design. PetitParser is unmatched in the ease of creating and extending parsers, not even PyParsing comes close (Raku grammars are close but use another metaphor for actions, ScalaParsing is... somewhat related but limited). The idea of finally working with a live codebase instead of its dead carcass[1] is frankly groundbreaking - and older than me, apparently. The Smalltalk debugger is a work of art, and the idea of working with images that contain the "whole world" in them is actually very appealing if you ever had to write a Dockerfile.

However, while Pharo may well be the most "advanced" Smalltalk(-like) environment, it's also one of the worst. On my Linux machine releases after 5 refused to as much as display anything - I got an empty window and the VM seemed to hang and never started properly. Glamorous Toolkit version did work, even though they share most of Pharo code. The churn in UI toolkits, the constant rewrites of everything, the utter lack of any kind of documentation (including on classes!) of installable packages, deprecation of tools that work (ofc after breaking them) in favor of tools that don't, yet leaving the former in place just to confuse users (b/c what other goal could it have?) - that's Pharo in a nutshell.

A few years ago I went to complain about the lack of backward compatibility and the fact that a tool, Package Manager, that used to work perfectly well, stopped working altogether. I learned that nobody under the Heavens cares more about backward compatibility than Pharo community (praphrasing: "look, we're even developing all-new annotation/pragma based system for marking and automatically fixing incompatibilities!") and that nobody uses the package manager anyway because they use... something else, I forgot, but anyway - the new thing was nowhere in the menus, while package manager stayed in the same place it was before. I gave up when I got no response after asking "how the heck should I, the user, know about deprecation of a tool if it's not indicated anin any way in the UI". What I got instead of an answer was a bunch of name calling and the usual suggestion for me to go and fix it myself.

I still love Smalltalk. If you love it too, but feel that - at least with Pharo - that feeling is not mutual, go grab Visual Works (no affiliation). Personal license is restrictive, and the version you get is 6 years old at this point. But. It comes with thousands of pages of PDFs with up to date documentation, manuals and guides. It comes with a stable, battle-tested UI framework, not based on Morphic but integrating seamlessly with your env windows (btw: "Pharo can do it too", say Pharo users, "it's just that nobody cares about such things") while still allowing all the dynamic introspection Smalltalk is known for. The infra for versioning and sharing code is idiosyncratic - you need to spin a local Postgres instance - but solid and surprisingly (if you come from git) powerful. There's a working package manager and you can install and run code from the nineties, something that's just absurd to attempt in Pharo, despite all the "caring" about backward compatibility. Yes, the VM is closed source, but it at least starts up properly.

It's a bit underwhelming in the performance dept, which made me reconsider starting one project with it, but by that point I already built my own little Smalltalk environment after fixing a lot of glitches (because, other than the VM, the source of everything else is available and you can modify it as easily as any other code) and I honestly felt really comfortable in it. It's incredibly similar to Emacs in terms of power and workflow, but with proper widgets and no need to worry about terminal users.

I also tried using GNU Smalltalk for a project, but that's basically dead at this point, with a lot of things unfinished. I still managed to build quite nice shell PoC in it. I also tried Smalltalk/X-jv, and it was kind of ok, but VW looked more polished and I didn't need the other langs integrations that Smalltalk/X does, so I stayed with VW. Cuis is also a nice attempt, but I wanted to break out of Morphic, so I didn't investigate it too deeply.

TLDR: Smalltalk is not just Pharo, there are Smalltalks that are not like Pharo, that don't treat users like unneeded baggage, that take integration with modern GUIs seriously, that have a lot of advanced tooling that's actually useful and needed. Oh, and also, there are Smalltalks that are not actively hostile to keyboard shortcuts! Give one of them a chance, you'll be surprised!

[1] https://blog.bracha.org/exemplarDemo/exemplar2021.html?snaps...

Re: Pharo 11

#96
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does this seem so common in niche projects like this one? I often see GitHub repos that seem very interesting and even quite liked but as a newcomer you're just supposed to figure everything out blindly by yourself. P.S: Thanks for saving me the time to download and try out Pharo.

P.S: Thanks for saving me the time to download and try out Pharo Unnecessarily snarky

Not meant personally, but sure my apologies.

Re: Pharo 11

#97

I got curious, downloaded and installed it on my computer. Checked the docs, and the next step was to download a stable image. Downloaded 11 (stable) and started it. Then blank stare to screen! What should I do? Lots of things to click on, and no text editor.. Searched for a tutorial on the website, and found nothing! I don't want to spend 30 minutes to look at some random videos of Virtual Reality in Thames or whate…

[flagged]

No need to, but the project should be honest about it: "this is not for lazy people! You'll spend a weekend just trying to boot the VM, and once you're done the hard part starts right there! So, go away, you unwanted user, you."

Put something like that on the front page and you're good to go.

Re: Pharo 11

#98

I got curious, downloaded and installed it on my computer. Checked the docs, and the next step was to download a stable image. Downloaded 11 (stable) and started it. Then blank stare to screen! What should I do? Lots of things to click on, and no text editor.. Searched for a tutorial on the website, and found nothing! I don't want to spend 30 minutes to look at some random videos of Virtual Reality in Thames or whate…

I do sympathize with your experience. It reminds me that one of the frustations when experienced programmers encountered Smalltalk back-in-the-day was often expressed as — Where's the program?

Maybe you wanted to step through like this (and then go explore by yourself):

https://cuis-smalltalk.github.io/TheCuisBook/Writing-your-fi...

https://cuis-smalltalk.github.io/TheCuisBook/A-brief-introdu...

Re: Pharo 11

#99
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does this seem so common in niche projects like this one? I often see GitHub repos that seem very interesting and even quite liked but as a newcomer you're just supposed to figure everything out blindly by yourself. P.S: Thanks for saving me the time to download and try out Pharo.

why should people spend their time trying to convince you of the value of their project? they already know if it's valuable; why should they be interested in your opinion? if it's a commercial product, they might get your money, but most projects on github aren't

I mean sure, I have nothing to say against that.

I'd just think if you write something like a programming language of all things you'd want others to use it and have a pleasant experience getting started.

Re: Pharo 11

#100
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: Can you create medium-size to large applications without a text editor?

it's not that it doesn't have a text editor; most smalltalk windows have five or six text editors

Oh boy, how does one keep their sanity like that?!
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