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Ask HN: Resources for older developers?

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Re: Ask HN: Resources for older developers?

#101

Post by JohnFen »

kokanee wrote: post #83
JohnFen wrote: post #29

I'm an older (than you!) developer, but I have no special resources related to that. But for what it's worth, here's my experience. I've found that nothing is really much different being an older developer compared to being a younger one, aside from two things: I have a lower tolerance for bullshit, and I have a much better handle on what my time is actually worth to employers. While ageism is certainly a thing that…

I'm in my mid-30s and facing the reality that I do not want to be a manager, but have a hard time picturing myself coding into my 60s. I'd be curious to hear more about what in your eyes separates "certain parts of our industry" that aren't suitable for older devs from those that offer good jobs which pay what you're worth. What kind of attributes would you look for in a company or product if you were searching for a…

Yes, I too have learned that I'm happier being a dev than being a manager.

This is very much broad-brushing and there are plenty of exceptions, but in general I've found that startups, FAANG-style companies, and companies that seem more focused on making products as a vehicle for using new technologies (as opposed to using appropriate technologies to make better products) tend to have a greater prejudice in favor of younger developers.

If such a company interests me, I'll absolutely apply to work for them -- but I don't really expect I'll hear back from them past the initial interview.

Although I have had good experiences as an older dev working for software companies, I've found that I have the best experiences working for companies that aren't overtly software. My current job, for instance, is at a company that makes industrial equipment. The software isn't the product, it's one of the components that makes the products work. It involves several currently-fashionable technologies, though, such as machine learning, so it's not like I'm working in a technological backwater.

My general approach, really, is more about setting proper expectations in my own mind rather than trying to pinpoint "older dev friendly" companies. If a company is doing something interesting, and appears to be the sort of place I'd enjoy working at, I'll toss my hat in the ring even if I suspect they'd consider me to be too old. I just won't get my hopes up with them.

I've also found that a big indicator is when I physically visit their offices and see the makeup of the other devs working there. Even a casual glance can reveal much in terms of how youth-oriented the company is. If I'm the oldest person in the building, they're probably not going to hire me.

I don't know if any of this helps. I'm a believer in not prejudging things too hard and don't really let my perception of their age culture be a significant factor in my decision-making. There are no hard lines here, and I have been hired and welcomed into companies where I was the oldest dev in the place by a large margin.

Re: Ask HN: Resources for older developers?

#102

Post by gardenhedge »

reactordev wrote: post #79
softwaredoug wrote: post #13

In my 20s I worried about losing my intellectual abilities in my 40s and 50s What you really just lose is patience for BS :) Sure, yeah, you lose 10% of your raw intellect if you stay healthy[1]. You probably more than make up for it in experience and wisdom. But hell the thing that demotivates me is the recycled insanity of large organizations, egotistical tech executives, hype cycles, and all the other BS. Eventual…

You lose 10% of your ability to react and think quickly, not your ability to think. In fact, the older you get the more deep your thinking becomes. This is probably what you see when you think “John is slow to respond at times” (John being the older, 40+ developer). The reality is John remembers the last time someone suggested using MongoDB as a caching store and how well that worked out. John is recalling all those…

I've come across good and bad devs at all ages but the best have always been older than me.

Re: Ask HN: Resources for older developers?

#103

Post by xpe »

lallysingh wrote: post #40
radicalbyte wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm 42 and so much better than I was at 22, but nowhere near where I was as an individual at 33. I blame the latter on having three small children. It has taken me a long time to deal with being only above average instead of someone people viewed as a genius. Not sure if I agree with the intellect loss - I've not lost anything, I'm just much better at juggling multiple things and less good at the math-heavy detail wo…

I suspect catching on some sleep, having free time to let your mind relax, and also time to sharpen your skills will bring you up pretty quickly. Improved self awareness may not bring you the confidence you had when you were 33, and improved humility may also prevent the 'genius' perception, but you're probably already more effective an engineer now than 9 years ago. And even more so after you GET SOME SLEEP :-)

> the confidence you had when you were 33, and improved humility may also prevent the 'genius' perception, but you're probably already more effective an engineer now than 9 years ago.

I can’t speak empirically to how people’s self awareness changes over time, but this quote rings true for me. I have more humility and a different kind of confidence.

In particular, I am less confident about a lot of things, but even more aware when other people are overconfident. In other words, I know I don’t grasp the complete reality, but I’m damn sure you don’t either. :)

Re: Ask HN: Resources for older developers?

#104

Post by gardenhedge »

makz wrote: post #69
javcasas wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

39 here. I'm significantly better than in my 20s. Much more knowledge and wisdom, a bit less raw brainpower. But I know I can force myself through hard stuff (prolog, category theory, ML research papers) but only if I can kick out instant gratification for a while (reddit, hn, videogames). I remember this week more than 10 years ago where my graphics card died, and had to go with this ancient card with zero accelerat…

37 here. I’m probably slower than in my 20s but somehow I feel smarter. I feel it takes me less time to learn new stuff and solve complex issues.

In what way are you slower then?

Re: Ask HN: Resources for older developers?

#105

Post by asdfman123 »

softwaredoug wrote: post #13

In my 20s I worried about losing my intellectual abilities in my 40s and 50s What you really just lose is patience for BS :) Sure, yeah, you lose 10% of your raw intellect if you stay healthy[1]. You probably more than make up for it in experience and wisdom. But hell the thing that demotivates me is the recycled insanity of large organizations, egotistical tech executives, hype cycles, and all the other BS. Eventual…

I think, generally speaking, you get less "hungry" as you get older across the board.

Sure, you could become excellent at guitar in your 40s, but unless you're extremely motivated, you probably don't care about learning it as much as a teenager would. Same goes with learning or becoming anything else.

(Of course, everything here is on average.)

Re: Ask HN: Resources for older developers?

#106

Post by xpe »

brodouevencode wrote: post #34
radicalbyte wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm 42 and so much better than I was at 22, but nowhere near where I was as an individual at 33. I blame the latter on having three small children. It has taken me a long time to deal with being only above average instead of someone people viewed as a genius. Not sure if I agree with the intellect loss - I've not lost anything, I'm just much better at juggling multiple things and less good at the math-heavy detail wo…

I think I've held on to my intellect (mid-40s), just have gotten wiser. And my tolerance for the inane, useless, and just plain stupid has dropped dramatically. I blame/credit that on having small kids too.

Less tolerance? What do you mean?

I’ve found my outward tolerance has had to increase. I still have an internal drive to shape outcomes in more meaningful directions. This has driven (or perhaps co-evolved with) the development of a wide range of skills to be persuasive and nudge people.

People can be so incredibly narrow-minded, short-sighted, inspiring, and/or wise, sometimes in the span of two sentences. Dealing with this juxtaposition is jarring and requires large levels of empathy.

It helps me to remember that many people vastly overestimate their individual influence and conscious awareness of what’s happening with their bodies and minds. I regularly aspire to balance what someone wants in the short run, long run with what larger groups need and expect. Kids teach you this very directly.

Re: Ask HN: Resources for older developers?

#108

Post by sokoloff »

latchkey wrote: post #94
sokoloff wrote: post #37

I'm in my 50s. I can't think of any category or dimension of tech resources that would more or less valuable for me in my 50s than they would be if I were in my 30s. Advice on exercise and eating responsibly might be the category (that you probably didn't have in mind) that would be different. Twenty years ago, I could play a softball doubleheader and hit the pub for a dinner of wings and several beers and be fine th…

Stop drinking entirely. I know it is hard to not have that nice beer or glass of wine, but the reality is that alcohol is just poison. Once you stop, you realize that it feels like some great conspiracy. We're literally bombarded with ads and social pressure to drink. It is like the pressure at your job to sign up for a 401k because you don't know how to manage money yourself and you should let someone else do it for…

I have mostly stopped drinking alcohol. Our downstairs fridge has 4 or 5 different kinds of good-tasting non-alcoholic beers; there has been a real explosion in the variety and quality of them available over the last decade. Many are fairly hard to distinguish from their alcohol-laden counterparts and even what small difference exists is far from worth the hangover/sluggish feeling.

When I have a drink now, it's likely a red wine with a beef dish and only a single.

On the flip side, I think the pressure to invest in a 401k is a strongly net-beneficial pressure. (Roth if your marginal tax rate is low now, traditional or a mix if your marginal tax rate is high now and you think it will be lower in retirement.) It’s not just about being a skilled investor or not, but the psychology and practicality of making a decision to save once and having that decision auto-implemented every paycheck has a way of preventing that retirement savings from turning into new cars and fantastic vacations now and a meager retirement nest egg later. The modest tax advantages and being largely judgment proof are icing on the cake, but the easy way to implement a disciplined process is very valuable.

Re: Ask HN: Resources for older developers?

#109

Post by latchkey »

jasonlotito wrote: post #100
latchkey wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I just turned 50 in October I'm turning 50 this month and a professional developer since I was about 21-22. > I think the lack of TDD being as widely adopted Hilariously, I just got -4'd (and a whole thread) for asking why someone didn't just write tests, instead of building some half baked tool to debug their websocket app. The responses were all sorts of absurd excuses. I'll happily take the negative karma, cause…

I dislike meta posts generally, but I'll give it a go so maybe you learn. > Now I'm getting downvoted again. Oh hn, you crack me up. Because you were whining about down votes. Generally, when I see someone whining about voting, I'll vote down without a second thought, regardless of the content of the post. Why? From the guidelines: "Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it mak…

Great response!

That said, my intention wasn't to whine. I truly don't care about the act of getting downvoted.

What I was trying to point out is that I was getting downvoted in my original post, because "kids these days" are against the general concept of TDD. That's in response to this OP's comment that I quoted.

Why were they against TDD? One person said it was because their CTO made them do 100% test coverage and that caused the startup to fail. Is that the failure of TDD or the failure of the CTO? ;-)

Now you're getting downvoted? LOL! For the record, I upvoted you.

Re: Ask HN: Resources for older developers?

#110

Post by asdfman123 »

lallysingh wrote: post #42
softwaredoug wrote: post #13

In my 20s I worried about losing my intellectual abilities in my 40s and 50s What you really just lose is patience for BS :) Sure, yeah, you lose 10% of your raw intellect if you stay healthy[1]. You probably more than make up for it in experience and wisdom. But hell the thing that demotivates me is the recycled insanity of large organizations, egotistical tech executives, hype cycles, and all the other BS. Eventual…

The problem is, so much of is BS that it's physically painful to keep up. Look, someone reinvented a basic lisp-ism in their mediocre language! Yes, new buzzwords for each part that was a function parameter to the original system! Yay! Now you can reduce your boilerplate by 10%! The system is still an unmaintainable ball of mud, but at least your for() loops can now have ridiculously high jitter and concurrency landm…

I think a lot of reasons older people encounter resistance is they don't want to play along with the BS.

Lots of 20-somethings would have no trouble working with a graybeard in his 50s if he was patient, played along, and acted as a mentor. But they don't want to work with him if he's rude and dismissive, and there's more of them than him.

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