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Go with PHP

gowithphp.com

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Re: Go with PHP

#351

Post by giaour »

jensensbutton wrote: post #233
kgeist wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, the main problem with PHP in my experience so far has been that it's very memory-hungry and slow (even PHP7/8), especially when coupled with frameworks/ORM magic. I remember after spending some time with Go, I got used to being able to process tens of thousands objects in memory in milliseconds. When I proposed to do the same in PHP, during architecture review, PHP devs thought I'm out of my mind because tha…

PHPs language peers are things like Python and Ruby, both of which are slower.

The way developers are encouraged to structure PHP projects (mainly due to autoloader semantics) always felt more like Java or .NET to me than it did like python. The resource consumption comparison between a Symfony web app vs the same thing written in ASP.NET or Spring Boot has a pretty clear winner, and it's not PHP.

Re: Go with PHP

#352

Post by giaour »

ceejayoz wrote: post #332
o1y32 wrote: post #307

"500,000 orders per month" That's like, what, 12 orders per minute? Is this meant to be impressive or something? I bet any language run on a modern laptop can handle that.

"when hosted on a $6/month server" Dropping half a sentence will often make it sound goofy, yes. The point being made is "you don't need a massive K8s infrastructure to handle hundreds of thousands of orders a month". Most people don't; https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2001/04/21/dont-let-architect... is an oldie but a goodie on the subject.

Boasting about 0.2 requests per second, even on a minimally spec'd VPS, is damning with faint praise.

Re: Go with PHP

#353

Post by pdimitar »

ceejayoz wrote: post #332
o1y32 wrote: post #307

"500,000 orders per month" That's like, what, 12 orders per minute? Is this meant to be impressive or something? I bet any language run on a modern laptop can handle that.

"when hosted on a $6/month server" Dropping half a sentence will often make it sound goofy, yes. The point being made is "you don't need a massive K8s infrastructure to handle hundreds of thousands of orders a month". Most people don't; https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2001/04/21/dont-let-architect... is an oldie but a goodie on the subject.

> "when hosted on a $6/month server"

So with hardware specs better than the Chinese laptop I bought second-hand for 150 EUR (which has a Celeron J CPU), the very same one that can serve 2000 req/s on Elixir and 5000 req/s with Rust, then?

Sure, waiting on the DB is often 95% or more of the request, I get it, but 0.2 requests per second (which is the 500K orders per month when you do the math) is nothing to brag about regardless of which language or DB are being used.

It's even below the level of having a bash script doing the heavy lifting.

Re: Go with PHP

#354

Post by mattgreenrocks »

topicseed wrote: post #179
keyle wrote: post #17

As a fullstack developer who has worked many, many years in the javascript hellhole, I mean ecosystem, as well as the python ecosystem and .NET; coming back to PHP the last 2 years, working essentially in Laravel and the like - I couldn't approve more of this message. Seriously, PHP is the grand father that will drive you to class and you'll never be late, the car will never smell and everything will always just be f…

The NPM/JS/TS hellhole is real. Moved on from it a couple of years ago, and today I switch between Go and PHP (WP custom stuff). Obviously Go and PHP are two very different languages but they bring me peace in ways JS never did. Especially when reopening older projects.

It's goofy to me how many devs think the art of writing software necessitates continually updating dependencies to have things not break. You're running in place! You could be working on something new that generates value, or adding features to what you have in that time.

Re: Go with PHP

#355

Post by galangalalgol »

dgb23 wrote: post #253
safety1st wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This 100%. It's actually a bit of a red flag to me these days if a developer turns up their nose at PHP. The language has matured a lot and building stuff with it is simple, cheap, straightforward and fast. If someone's still hating on PHP in 2023 it makes me wonder if they've been focused on more exotic technology because they were looking to pad their resume with more expensive skills, build science projects for th…

> If someone's still hating on PHP in 2023 it makes me wonder if they've been focused on more exotic technology because they were looking to pad their resume with more expensive skills, build science projects for their own amusement vs. what the business needed, etc. etc. Red flag. I get that you are arguing from personal experiences, people you met and worked with. But this statement lacks context and nuance. There…

OOP, codegen, vendorlock, and bloat-magic...

Those resonate with me reminding menof some of the worst development experiences in my career. Different language, different domain, but I recognize it. The simplicity is alluring, and even enticed me at first. It just doesn't scale for problems that are complicated vs the ones you are shown as marketing. The managers and architects like it because it hides the confusing or non-elegant details from view, but that just makes it hard for the devs to work on it.

Re: Go with PHP

#356

Post by Alifatisk »

cutler wrote: post #228
nstart wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just made the same comment and deleted it seeing that you already stated it. Protecting against all of these is hard and no tech is going to automatically protect for all of this on its own. Such a weird statement to make that takes away from the message of the site entirely.

Rails does a pretty good job.

I've tried Laravel, it's a beautiful framework. But I see no reason to switch from Rails, it's a beast.

Re: Go with PHP

#357

Post by jwithington »

I hosted a phpBB forum as a kid in the early 2000s.

15 years later I joined a marketplace startup that was doing 10,000 transactions a day.

Built as a PHP monolith.

I was sooooo confused at first. “PHP??? That strange language I used to host a forum is powering this app??”

Turns out the founding engineer was self-taught and PHP had the most tutorials or something lol

Re: Go with PHP

#358

Post by nine_k »

irobeth wrote: post #345
jusssi wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> magic framework stuff that Laravel/Symphony provide The magic in these frameworks is evil, and likely a big part in ruining PHP's reputation. Laravel in particular hides way too much stuff behind magic, and when it goes wrong you find yourself sifting through OOP-obfuscated layers of framework and libraries just to find out how exactly your controller is called.

> when it goes wrong you find yourself sifting through OOP-obfuscated layers of framework and libraries just to find out how exactly your controller is called. debug_backtrace() has always been my friend in situations like this

Indeed so. But there's value in an ability to find out such things without running the code, just by looking at it.

Re: Go with PHP

#359

Post by chrisan »

dgb23 wrote: post #253
safety1st wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This 100%. It's actually a bit of a red flag to me these days if a developer turns up their nose at PHP. The language has matured a lot and building stuff with it is simple, cheap, straightforward and fast. If someone's still hating on PHP in 2023 it makes me wonder if they've been focused on more exotic technology because they were looking to pad their resume with more expensive skills, build science projects for th…

> If someone's still hating on PHP in 2023 it makes me wonder if they've been focused on more exotic technology because they were looking to pad their resume with more expensive skills, build science projects for their own amusement vs. what the business needed, etc. etc. Red flag. I get that you are arguing from personal experiences, people you met and worked with. But this statement lacks context and nuance. There…

This comes across exactly what the previous poster was saying as someone who turns their nose up to PHP. Especially the "you have to" gibe.

> But there are many who have so many battle scars and war stories with the language and its ecosystem that they decided it's just not worth the pain anymore.

I could say the same thing about javascript from the early days, through Jquery, and beyond. Should I turn my nose up to modern javascript because of the past 2+ decades I've been working with it? No because they are "outdated reasons" as you say

> The effort required to make PHP work with you, in comparison to other languages, becomes too large and painful. I'm not talking about superficial things here, nor do I have the tendency to overengineer stuff, quite the contrary. I'm talking about writing simple, robust and efficient code.

Do you have an example of this?

Re: Go with PHP

#360

Post by okeuro49 »

jusssi wrote: post #292
dgb23 wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If someone's still hating on PHP in 2023 it makes me wonder if they've been focused on more exotic technology because they were looking to pad their resume with more expensive skills, build science projects for their own amusement vs. what the business needed, etc. etc. Red flag. I get that you are arguing from personal experiences, people you met and worked with. But this statement lacks context and nuance. There…

> magic framework stuff that Laravel/Symphony provide The magic in these frameworks is evil, and likely a big part in ruining PHP's reputation. Laravel in particular hides way too much stuff behind magic, and when it goes wrong you find yourself sifting through OOP-obfuscated layers of framework and libraries just to find out how exactly your controller is called.

> The magic in these frameworks is evil, and likely a big part in ruining PHP's reputation.

Have you actually used Symfony?

It's an absolute pleasure in its domain and includes rich debugging abilities through its dev toolbar.

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