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Protocol Wars

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Re: Protocol Wars

#31

Post by speed_spread »

PinguTS wrote: post #19
samwillis wrote: post #3

TCP/IP is so entrenched in everything, literally, it will still be in use when we leave this planet and it gets swallowed up by the sun. The news will report the destruction of Earth and explain that it and its inhabitants longest lasting legacy is TCP/IP, then report that the transition to IPv6 is going well and everyone will be on it soon...

Actually, even TCP is going to be replaced. I just want to remind the initial work of Google on QUIC, which now has become some standard. It is based on UDP and re-defining TCP features based on UDP together with cryptography and by allowing IP changes to allow moving clients.

TCP is fine and isn't going anywhere. QUIC is an overengineered contraption that only exists to serve more ads. SSH doesn't need it. Postgres doesn't need it. Nobody needs QUIC except Google.

Re: Protocol Wars

#32

Post by lagniappe »

lordnacho wrote: post #15

This explains my childhood video game woes in the 90s. I'd have friends over, and we'd want to play DOOM multiplayer. The only problem was that as kids we had no idea how networking worked. We'd fiddle around on the Windows networking setup, and there'd be a list of protocols like IP and IPX. Words like Token Ring would appear. Just a blur that 15 year old kid had no chance against. Curiously despite being a network…

ah yes, and the null modem cable.

Re: Protocol Wars

#33

Post by api »

KptMarchewa wrote: post #21
greyface- wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TCP becomes unusable under interplanetary latencies; leaving the planet will force us to transition off of it.

I don't think volume of data average user will want to send to Mars over next 100 years will be a important factor enough. I envision Mars comms using some kind of relay service, to which you'd communicate using TCP

Earth-Mars will be a store and forward network not unlike the old UUCP or BBS networks like FidoNet. You will send blobs of data via something that probably looks like a replicated S3 bucket and get notified when replication of an object has occurred.

IP is usable to the Moon but a lot of protocols would need latency constants adjusted and very large packets would be desirable. Store and forward with custom replication protocols might still be more efficient for large volumes of data.

Re: Protocol Wars

#34

Post by chpatrick »

arpa wrote: post #26
greyface- wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TCP becomes unusable under interplanetary latencies; leaving the planet will force us to transition off of it.

i'm not sure about that statement. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_over_Avian_Carriers

That's IP (and ICMP for ping), not TCP.

Re: Protocol Wars

#35

Post by api »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #27
samwillis wrote: post #3

TCP/IP is so entrenched in everything, literally, it will still be in use when we leave this planet and it gets swallowed up by the sun. The news will report the destruction of Earth and explain that it and its inhabitants longest lasting legacy is TCP/IP, then report that the transition to IPv6 is going well and everyone will be on it soon...

So.... which will come first, "the year of IPv6" or "the year of linux desktop"? :)

IPv6 is waiting on stubborn cloud networks and CDNs. Most of the edge now has it. My guess is that it’s mostly reluctance to introduce complexity when most customers are not asking for it. The biggest holdouts seem to be connected to Microsoft, with GitHub being one of the most relevant.

The Linux desktop will arrive if we just wait for Microsoft to keep making Windows worse. Linux doesn’t have to get better. MS just needs to incorporate more ads.

Re: Protocol Wars

#36

Post by nizmow »

lordnacho wrote: post #15

This explains my childhood video game woes in the 90s. I'd have friends over, and we'd want to play DOOM multiplayer. The only problem was that as kids we had no idea how networking worked. We'd fiddle around on the Windows networking setup, and there'd be a list of protocols like IP and IPX. Words like Token Ring would appear. Just a blur that 15 year old kid had no chance against. Curiously despite being a network…

Doom didn’t even use the Windows networking stack. You just chose IPX from the multiplayer setup menu.

Re: Protocol Wars

#37

Post by londons_explore »

PinguTS wrote: post #19
samwillis wrote: post #3

TCP/IP is so entrenched in everything, literally, it will still be in use when we leave this planet and it gets swallowed up by the sun. The news will report the destruction of Earth and explain that it and its inhabitants longest lasting legacy is TCP/IP, then report that the transition to IPv6 is going well and everyone will be on it soon...

Actually, even TCP is going to be replaced. I just want to remind the initial work of Google on QUIC, which now has become some standard. It is based on UDP and re-defining TCP features based on UDP together with cryptography and by allowing IP changes to allow moving clients.

And yet, even with QUIC and a brand new Google phone on a Google wifi network and a Google Fi cell connection, I still can't walk away from my house and have a video call migrate from wifi to 5G without the audio glitching and dropping frames.

All the mobility benefits of QUIC mean nothing when the rest of the software stack isn't designed to let it work.

Re: Protocol Wars

#38

Post by eternityforest »

I wish we could start over and redesign everything from Ethernet up to TLS with the lessons we now understand. So many layers could be merged, security could be so much easier, IP addressing hassles could be unnecessary.

But all the stuff that seems obvious now couldn't have been learned without the decades of kind of terrible hackery that is OSI and the associated awful stuff like DNS.

I'm not sure what the moral of that story is or how anything could have been done any better. Maybe the software APIs could have been less coupled to the actual protocol, they could have designed things so app code had to be agnostic to the number of bits in an IP address, etc.

Re: Protocol Wars

#39

Post by doublerabbit »

lagniappe wrote: post #32
lordnacho wrote: post #15

This explains my childhood video game woes in the 90s. I'd have friends over, and we'd want to play DOOM multiplayer. The only problem was that as kids we had no idea how networking worked. We'd fiddle around on the Windows networking setup, and there'd be a list of protocols like IP and IPX. Words like Token Ring would appear. Just a blur that 15 year old kid had no chance against. Curiously despite being a network…

ah yes, and the null modem cable.

I recall the original Command & Conquer and dialling my friends phone number to play 1v1 multiplayer.

Re: Protocol Wars

#40

Post by jasode »

api wrote: post #35
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So.... which will come first, "the year of IPv6" or "the year of linux desktop"? :)

IPv6 is waiting on stubborn cloud networks and CDNs. Most of the edge now has it. My guess is that it’s mostly reluctance to introduce complexity when most customers are not asking for it. The biggest holdouts seem to be connected to Microsoft, with GitHub being one of the most relevant. The Linux desktop will arrive if we just wait for Microsoft to keep making Windows worse. Linux doesn’t have to get better. MS just…

>IPv6 is waiting on stubborn cloud networks and CDNs. Most of the edge now has it.

Depends on the ISP. E.g. a lot of Verizon/Frontier FiOS residential customers don't have IPv6. Google statistics say USA is ~47% IPv6. Frontier FiOS is less % than that.

Example recent thread: https://old.reddit.com/r/frontierfios/comments/v9azjj/june_2...

Google's statistics: https://www.google.com/intl/en/ipv6/statistics.html#tab=per-...

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