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Go with PHP

gowithphp.com

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Re: Go with PHP

#81

Post by _the_inflator »

mholt wrote: post #24

I'm in the group described halfway down: was on the Internet during PHP 5, lost interest in it, and moved on [to Go]. I haven't written anything in PHP newer than version 5. Even transitioning from 4 to 5 was quite a big deal, I definitely noticed improvements. But it wasn't enough. I couldn't fit the data set in memory with PHP. But I could do it with Go. I couldn't do parallel computations in PHP in order to respon…

I agree with every checkmark except for Go.

PHP was the right tool at the time especially when everything on the web was somewhat Wordpress first. PHP felt like a blast with WAMP/LAMP.

Since then I have moved on and honestly it never occurred to me, that PHP still could be an option in my tech stacks, neither one of my devs recommended it.

No one hates or disliked PHP, there are simply other options.

Looking back, recommending PHP today feels like "You can do this with jQuery, too" in the Frontend domain. Yes, you can, but maybe you shouldn't or only if you have the right people. And PHP is a rare skill now.

Re: Go with PHP

#82

Post by naiv »

acherion wrote: post #51
keyle wrote: post #17

As a fullstack developer who has worked many, many years in the javascript hellhole, I mean ecosystem, as well as the python ecosystem and .NET; coming back to PHP the last 2 years, working essentially in Laravel and the like - I couldn't approve more of this message. Seriously, PHP is the grand father that will drive you to class and you'll never be late, the car will never smell and everything will always just be f…

> Laravel is [...] reasonably well documented Hard disagree. Sorry, I don't have a computer science degree, why does their documentation make that assumption. I find their docs very hard to grok. PHP.net docs are no-frills no-fuss, straight to the point. Other frameworks are documented very well too, CakePHP comes to mind (at least, when I was using it last in v2 and v3). I can't say I've read the absolute latest ver…

The documentation for Laravel is still unreadable.

Guess that is why selling Laravel tutorials seems to be a fruitful business.

Re: Go with PHP

#83

Post by berkle4455 »

kgeist wrote: post #57
mholt wrote: post #24

I'm in the group described halfway down: was on the Internet during PHP 5, lost interest in it, and moved on [to Go]. I haven't written anything in PHP newer than version 5. Even transitioning from 4 to 5 was quite a big deal, I definitely noticed improvements. But it wasn't enough. I couldn't fit the data set in memory with PHP. But I could do it with Go. I couldn't do parallel computations in PHP in order to respon…

I agree, the main problem with PHP in my experience so far has been that it's very memory-hungry and slow (even PHP7/8), especially when coupled with frameworks/ORM magic. I remember after spending some time with Go, I got used to being able to process tens of thousands objects in memory in milliseconds. When I proposed to do the same in PHP, during architecture review, PHP devs thought I'm out of my mind because tha…

You're doing something terribly wrong. Sounds like caching isn't setup and your http -> php handler is cold booting the interpreter for every single request.

Check these Go vs. PHP benchmarks. PHP is quite fast and stands up nicely to the performance you get out of Go.

https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=data-r21&l=z...

Re: Go with PHP

#84

Post by withinboredom »

kgeist wrote: post #57
mholt wrote: post #24

I'm in the group described halfway down: was on the Internet during PHP 5, lost interest in it, and moved on [to Go]. I haven't written anything in PHP newer than version 5. Even transitioning from 4 to 5 was quite a big deal, I definitely noticed improvements. But it wasn't enough. I couldn't fit the data set in memory with PHP. But I could do it with Go. I couldn't do parallel computations in PHP in order to respon…

I agree, the main problem with PHP in my experience so far has been that it's very memory-hungry and slow (even PHP7/8), especially when coupled with frameworks/ORM magic. I remember after spending some time with Go, I got used to being able to process tens of thousands objects in memory in milliseconds. When I proposed to do the same in PHP, during architecture review, PHP devs thought I'm out of my mind because tha…

I’ve written PHP apps that process millions of entities without issue at my old job. We didn’t use an ORM or anything magic. At my current job, using an ORM, my code has twice as much memory yet I can only load a few thousand entities before OOMing.

If you’re willing to give up magic, it’s worth it.

Re: Go with PHP

#85

Post by deanc »

zemnmez wrote: post #62
janmo wrote: post #6

> Your website is automatically protected against XSS, session hijacking, CSRF, SQL injection, host header attacks, and other vulnerabilities. That's quite misleading however

I want to second this. The top StackOverflow comment for protecting against XSS in PHP still recommends htmlspecialchars() https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1996122/how-to-prevent-x... which is a terrible and ancient approach (context-aware templates are the modern approach). I also Googled to check CSRF protection and all the sites I can find just discuss rolling it yourself; the example uses some CSPRNG that can…

You don't get XSS protection out the box from any language's standard library, nor CSRF.

Re: Go with PHP

#86

Post by asdfman123 »

mholt wrote: post #24

I'm in the group described halfway down: was on the Internet during PHP 5, lost interest in it, and moved on [to Go]. I haven't written anything in PHP newer than version 5. Even transitioning from 4 to 5 was quite a big deal, I definitely noticed improvements. But it wasn't enough. I couldn't fit the data set in memory with PHP. But I could do it with Go. I couldn't do parallel computations in PHP in order to respon…

I’m not defending PHP necessarily, but yes, obviously a language that’s more performance oriented will be better at performance-oriented tasks.

Re: Go with PHP

#87

Post by 0xblinq »

keyle wrote: post #17

As a fullstack developer who has worked many, many years in the javascript hellhole, I mean ecosystem, as well as the python ecosystem and .NET; coming back to PHP the last 2 years, working essentially in Laravel and the like - I couldn't approve more of this message. Seriously, PHP is the grand father that will drive you to class and you'll never be late, the car will never smell and everything will always just be f…

I've always told my coworkers and friends that the programming language doesn't matter at all (despite I don't think there's anything wrong or worse than alternatives in modern PHP). What matters is the frameworks, libraries, ecosystem, editor support, available talent, culture around it, etc. And PHP (and the Laravel ecosystem) is rock solid in that area, the best by far. I'm a frontend dev at a pretty big company, but before this I worked on a Laravel + TurboLaravel (Hotwire, etc) and it's just incredible how easy and quick it was to build and maintain things.

Re: Go with PHP

#88

Post by awestroke »

scsteps wrote: post #12

It’s cool to see PHP getting its second heyday once again. It’s currently a perfect storm of two communities starting to notice PHP. From the JavaScript side, people are comparing React with PHP, and on the bootstrapped start up side, people are talking about just using a single index.php file for your entire product without dealing with a complex tech stack as inspired by Pieter Levels.

> It’s cool to see PHP getting its second heyday once again. It’s currently a perfect storm of two communities starting to notice PHP.

Really? I see no evidence that this is happening

Re: Go with PHP

#89

Post by crabmusket »

Elte wrote: post #78
acherion wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Laravel is [...] reasonably well documented Hard disagree. Sorry, I don't have a computer science degree, why does their documentation make that assumption. I find their docs very hard to grok. PHP.net docs are no-frills no-fuss, straight to the point. Other frameworks are documented very well too, CakePHP comes to mind (at least, when I was using it last in v2 and v3). I can't say I've read the absolute latest ver…

The documentation reads like a tutorial, which is fine the first time you read it, and really annoying the next 99 times when you're just trying to find something. My biggest gripe though is that the majority of classes / methods aren't locally documented with comments, or only minimally. If I don't understand how a certain parameter behaves (or even what a function does), I have to go online and search for examples,…

Yep, the tutorials/guides are really good, but as you say, the details aren't really covered. There are so many examples like "relationsToArray(): Get the model's relationships in array form."[1] Just an expanded version of the method name with no context or detail.

[1]: https://laravel.com/api/10.x/Illuminate/Database/Eloquent/Mo...

Re: Go with PHP

#90

Post by porker »

mekoka wrote: post #49

Any programmers here who've used PHP to build command line tools in PHP? What is the experience like compared to, let's say Python or node.js? How good are the facilities? What are the limitations?

It's really good. Using the Symfony Console component you get sane argument and option parsing and validation (optional/required, single or array values), output styling, interactive inputs, tables etc.

If you're wanting to build a TUI I haven't seen any libraries as advanced as the Python or JS ones.

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