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Go with PHP

gowithphp.com

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Re: Go with PHP

#71

Post by n0n0n4t0r »

kgeist wrote: post #57
mholt wrote: post #24

I'm in the group described halfway down: was on the Internet during PHP 5, lost interest in it, and moved on [to Go]. I haven't written anything in PHP newer than version 5. Even transitioning from 4 to 5 was quite a big deal, I definitely noticed improvements. But it wasn't enough. I couldn't fit the data set in memory with PHP. But I could do it with Go. I couldn't do parallel computations in PHP in order to respon…

I agree, the main problem with PHP in my experience so far has been that it's very memory-hungry and slow (even PHP7/8), especially when coupled with frameworks/ORM magic. I remember after spending some time with Go, I got used to being able to process tens of thousands objects in memory in milliseconds. When I proposed to do the same in PHP, during architecture review, PHP devs thought I'm out of my mind because tha…

If symphony takes 300ms in prod. Then you have a serious problem!

Probably a configuration missing.

Re: Go with PHP

#73

Post by oefrha »

blindhippo wrote: post #45
janmo wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked for a company and we used the PHP ORM Propel. So in theory no SQL injections you would think, WRONG. We used a function like findOne() (I don't recall exactly). It looked like this: $resetTokens->findOne($GET['password-reset-token']); The issue was that findOne would accept wildcards, so one could use ?password-reset-token=% in the URL and reset the password of any random users.

... why would you pass $GET through to a logical layer with access to a data store write without sanitizing it? This seems like a pretty basic thing to fix, but then I only have your snippet to go by.

That’s a parametrized API that’s supposed to be safe against injection, at least to anyone who’s ever used parametrized APIs and hasn’t read the documentation of this particular library in detail. That it supports wildcard makes as much sense as log4j executing code in textual messages.

If an ORM/builder casually puts =/IS and LIKE in the same method, don’t touch it.

Re: Go with PHP

#74

Post by naiv »

mekoka wrote: post #49

Any programmers here who've used PHP to build command line tools in PHP? What is the experience like compared to, let's say Python or node.js? How good are the facilities? What are the limitations?

Symfony command is great for this https://symfony.com/doc/current/console.html

But it really depends on what you need the command for.

I use Symfony command for general things, Node.js for eg PDF generation, Python for ML, Rust for calculating Ranks/Scores

Development time is the same for all of them.

For whatever reason Node.js scripts always feel dirty to me. I can not even pinpoint why.

Re: Go with PHP

#75

Post by npsomaratna »

keyle wrote: post #17

As a fullstack developer who has worked many, many years in the javascript hellhole, I mean ecosystem, as well as the python ecosystem and .NET; coming back to PHP the last 2 years, working essentially in Laravel and the like - I couldn't approve more of this message. Seriously, PHP is the grand father that will drive you to class and you'll never be late, the car will never smell and everything will always just be f…

I've used maybe a couple of dozen programming languages over the years (yes, I'm that old). I see programming languages as tools—you want to pick the right tool for the right purpose. Whether a tool is right depends not just on the language itself, but also the ecosystem of libraries.

Thanks to Laravel (along with Livewire and Alpine.js), and an ecosystem of libraries enabled by Composer, PHP is a great choice for web development. I'd not use it for, say, coding machine learning stuff though!

Re: Go with PHP

#76

Post by zdragnar »

sockgrant wrote: post #37
joering2 wrote: post #19

I think its a great reminder to code with whatever you feel comfortable. For example, my last project I did in Centos/Apache/PHP5/Code Igniter 3.1 with some WASP for protection I did for 12 years and sold few months ago. It checks out against Qualys Server test and ImmuniWeb very well. I sold it for close to $10MM with annual revenues of $1.6MM. The last question the new owner asked me was "what did you program it wi…

Gotta love engineers. 45 minutes of reading 12 years of someone’s work and the first thing they say is “yeah I’d rewrite it”. Every. Dang. Engineer. It’s crazy. I try to work in a codebase for 3-6 months before coming to any wild conclusions. Usually you find that there’s some warts but it does the job and there’s complexity that was solved that you hadn’t originally noticed, and it’s not worth rewriting it just need…

A clean rewrite is almost always going to produce better code than what already exists in a project that has grown organically.

The current project has had numerous iterations on requirements over the years, changes in project leadership, paradigm fads come and go, and all that time accumulating cruft and layers. Looking at it at a single moment in time, you have a fixed set of current requirements where all the discovery has already been done, plus whatever your current knowledge of future requirements is, possibly none of which may have existed when the original code was written.

That doesn't mean that everyone is going to sit around on their thumbs patiently waiting for you to rewrite it to be perfect. The more lines of code there are, the more time it will take, and the more hidden features that nobody really remembers exist but are still crucial will crop up.

Few situations are actually best served by a full rewrite, but almost every project would be better off if the world could stand still long enough for it to happen.

Re: Go with PHP

#77

Post by pkphilip »

keyle wrote: post #17

As a fullstack developer who has worked many, many years in the javascript hellhole, I mean ecosystem, as well as the python ecosystem and .NET; coming back to PHP the last 2 years, working essentially in Laravel and the like - I couldn't approve more of this message. Seriously, PHP is the grand father that will drive you to class and you'll never be late, the car will never smell and everything will always just be f…

Absolutely. The developer experience with PHP is so far ahead of the Javascript "ecosystem" that it is ridiculous!

Re: Go with PHP

#78

Post by Elte »

acherion wrote: post #51
keyle wrote: post #17

As a fullstack developer who has worked many, many years in the javascript hellhole, I mean ecosystem, as well as the python ecosystem and .NET; coming back to PHP the last 2 years, working essentially in Laravel and the like - I couldn't approve more of this message. Seriously, PHP is the grand father that will drive you to class and you'll never be late, the car will never smell and everything will always just be f…

> Laravel is [...] reasonably well documented Hard disagree. Sorry, I don't have a computer science degree, why does their documentation make that assumption. I find their docs very hard to grok. PHP.net docs are no-frills no-fuss, straight to the point. Other frameworks are documented very well too, CakePHP comes to mind (at least, when I was using it last in v2 and v3). I can't say I've read the absolute latest ver…

The documentation reads like a tutorial, which is fine the first time you read it, and really annoying the next 99 times when you're just trying to find something. My biggest gripe though is that the majority of classes / methods aren't locally documented with comments, or only minimally. If I don't understand how a certain parameter behaves (or even what a function does), I have to go online and search for examples, or look through the docs hoping that it's explained. And don't get me started on Facades, which are a code discovery dead end...

All that being said, my overall experience of working with PHP / Laravel is quite pleasant, probably more so than other technologies I've worked with in recent years. Everything has its issues I suppose.

Re: Go with PHP

#79

Post by mhitza »

kgeist wrote: post #57
mholt wrote: post #24

I'm in the group described halfway down: was on the Internet during PHP 5, lost interest in it, and moved on [to Go]. I haven't written anything in PHP newer than version 5. Even transitioning from 4 to 5 was quite a big deal, I definitely noticed improvements. But it wasn't enough. I couldn't fit the data set in memory with PHP. But I could do it with Go. I couldn't do parallel computations in PHP in order to respon…

I agree, the main problem with PHP in my experience so far has been that it's very memory-hungry and slow (even PHP7/8), especially when coupled with frameworks/ORM magic. I remember after spending some time with Go, I got used to being able to process tens of thousands objects in memory in milliseconds. When I proposed to do the same in PHP, during architecture review, PHP devs thought I'm out of my mind because tha…

That 300ms initialization time sounds like a cache-free execution (aka dev mode). I have symfony projects light on ORM usage (I dislike Doctrine from the bottom of my hearth, but what can you do it's the blessed symfony ORM) and after a cache warmup it handles requests under 100ms.

Yes, the frameworks have obscene (java-like) class dependencies that build up during initialization (I'd prefer if there'd be a lighter function based framework nowadays), however for someone that knows how to manage PHP on the server there are OPCache tweaks, preloading facilities which help improve the request initialization performane (these steps are also expanded on in the symfony docs).

The share-nothing arhitecture of each request is either a benefit or a downside, depending who you ask.

Re: Go with PHP

#80

Post by dotancohen »

acherion wrote: post #51
keyle wrote: post #17

As a fullstack developer who has worked many, many years in the javascript hellhole, I mean ecosystem, as well as the python ecosystem and .NET; coming back to PHP the last 2 years, working essentially in Laravel and the like - I couldn't approve more of this message. Seriously, PHP is the grand father that will drive you to class and you'll never be late, the car will never smell and everything will always just be f…

> Laravel is [...] reasonably well documented Hard disagree. Sorry, I don't have a computer science degree, why does their documentation make that assumption. I find their docs very hard to grok. PHP.net docs are no-frills no-fuss, straight to the point. Other frameworks are documented very well too, CakePHP comes to mind (at least, when I was using it last in v2 and v3). I can't say I've read the absolute latest ver…

What "computer science terms" did you encounter, that you did not understand? I also do not have a CS degree, but every term that I've encountered in the Laravel docs I found easy to search for. Just don't rely on Wikipedia for explanations, for CS (and mathematics) subjects Wikipedia seems to be useful only to those already versed in the field.
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