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Go with PHP

gowithphp.com

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Re: Go with PHP

#61

Post by solraph »

endorphine wrote: post #39

Coming from Rails, how does Laravel compares? If you know both languages, which one would you pick? I've this hunch that there's no reason to lick Laravel over Rails, since that latter is the bees and knees for web development. Alternatively: what would you suggest someone getting into web development to learn? PHP or Ruby?

> If you know both languages, which one would you pick?

The one with the best density of good developers in your hiring region if the application ends up scaling.

> Alternatively: what would you suggest someone getting into web development to learn? PHP or Ruby?

Neither. I would tell them to get into the Javascript ecosystem - not because I think it's necessarily good, but because that's where most of the work is. I'd also reccomend picking up at least one other general purpose language to be a bit more rounded such as Golang, Java, C#, Python.

Re: Go with PHP

#62

Post by zemnmez »

janmo wrote: post #6

> Your website is automatically protected against XSS, session hijacking, CSRF, SQL injection, host header attacks, and other vulnerabilities. That's quite misleading however

I want to second this. The top StackOverflow comment for protecting against XSS in PHP still recommends htmlspecialchars() https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1996122/how-to-prevent-x... which is a terrible and ancient approach (context-aware templates are the modern approach).

I also Googled to check CSRF protection and all the sites I can find just discuss rolling it yourself; the example uses some CSPRNG that can potentially return not cryptographically secure numbers without erroring. https://www.section.io/engineering-education/csrf-protection...

That's one thing that really drove me away from PHP. It presents an extremely simple seeming universe, in which web apps are very easy to write – but has really naïve bones, requiring a lot of extra scaffolding to be safe.

Re: Go with PHP

#63

Post by konart »

heywhatupboys wrote: post #52
mholt wrote: post #24

I'm in the group described halfway down: was on the Internet during PHP 5, lost interest in it, and moved on [to Go]. I haven't written anything in PHP newer than version 5. Even transitioning from 4 to 5 was quite a big deal, I definitely noticed improvements. But it wasn't enough. I couldn't fit the data set in memory with PHP. But I could do it with Go. I couldn't do parallel computations in PHP in order to respon…

When are these ever issues? In a real life scenario

In almost any scenario?

>I couldn't fit the data set in memory with PHP. But I could do it with Go.

I guess this on is self-explanatory.

>I couldn't do parallel computations in PHP in order to respond to an HTTP request quickly enough. But I could do it with Go.

Consider the following (covers both statements above): you need to get some data from a few sources (databases etc) do some computation on each set and then do some sort of mapping to get the resulting set. You may want those computations to run in parallel and idealy you'd like to start mapping as soon as each computation function starts producing results.

>I couldn't reliably and easily deploy to different systems with PHP. But I could do it with Go.

I haven't been using PHP since 5 but I assume it's still much easier to just push you Go binary to a destination.

Though with Docker and company deploying PHP code is not a big issue these days I assume.

Re: Go with PHP

#65

Post by muglug »

mekoka wrote: post #49

Any programmers here who've used PHP to build command line tools in PHP? What is the experience like compared to, let's say Python or node.js? How good are the facilities? What are the limitations?

I have rewritten more-or-less the same tool, 100KLOC, in Rust and PHP. I can't tell you about Python or Node.js

Use PHP if

- you're in a hurry and you already either know PHP, or the script is going to call other PHP code you've written

- execution speed is not important (ditto for Python and Node)

If neither of the above is true, give Rust a whirl.

Re: Go with PHP

#66

Post by konart »

Why would you go with PHP+whateverframework instead of Ruby on Rails or Django?

I haven't touched PHP since 5th version and I'm kind of sceptical it can offer anything RoR can't.

Re: Go with PHP

#67

Post by naiv »

kgeist wrote: post #57
mholt wrote: post #24

I'm in the group described halfway down: was on the Internet during PHP 5, lost interest in it, and moved on [to Go]. I haven't written anything in PHP newer than version 5. Even transitioning from 4 to 5 was quite a big deal, I definitely noticed improvements. But it wasn't enough. I couldn't fit the data set in memory with PHP. But I could do it with Go. I couldn't do parallel computations in PHP in order to respon…

I agree, the main problem with PHP in my experience so far has been that it's very memory-hungry and slow (even PHP7/8), especially when coupled with frameworks/ORM magic. I remember after spending some time with Go, I got used to being able to process tens of thousands objects in memory in milliseconds. When I proposed to do the same in PHP, during architecture review, PHP devs thought I'm out of my mind because tha…

What you are describing only happens in dev environment

The Symfony container does not rebuild in production and requests should easily be served within 5-10ms as well so you might want to check your deployment pipeline and that you correctly composer dump-env prod

Re: Go with PHP

#68

Post by mongol »

> It can handle more than 500,000 orders per month when hosted on a $6/month server

Is this a statement from the real world? What business sells 500,000 orders in a month from a $6 server? I mean, if you sell that much, you would probably want a high-availability solution and they don't sell for 6 bucks.

Re: Go with PHP

#69

Post by keyle »

safety1st wrote: post #44
keyle wrote: post #17

As a fullstack developer who has worked many, many years in the javascript hellhole, I mean ecosystem, as well as the python ecosystem and .NET; coming back to PHP the last 2 years, working essentially in Laravel and the like - I couldn't approve more of this message. Seriously, PHP is the grand father that will drive you to class and you'll never be late, the car will never smell and everything will always just be f…

This 100%. It's actually a bit of a red flag to me these days if a developer turns up their nose at PHP. The language has matured a lot and building stuff with it is simple, cheap, straightforward and fast. If someone's still hating on PHP in 2023 it makes me wonder if they've been focused on more exotic technology because they were looking to pad their resume with more expensive skills, build science projects for th…

I think it's a case that unfortunately many people don't understand how simple a solution can be. They've been fed the typical books and articles and firmly believe that if it's just PHP it just can't be good. Right? I mean going through all this pain and requiring that many developers, means that this solution has to be much better? Right?

On the one end of the scale you've got the PHP Laravel monolith, and on the other you've got the completely serverless bits of JS over lambdas, with 12 different technologies, buckets up the wazoo, to store 300mb worth of data.

Then you're told 'yeah, but this is distributed'! Okay cool, so you save 50ms of latency. Super... How long does your javascript takes to start returning content? Right, much longer. What the hell is even a cold start? How is that a thing in 2023?

PHP is unsexy. And people don't like unsexy. I, on the other hand, I like my vacations uninterrupted.

Re: Go with PHP

#70

Post by tobinfekkes »

jszymborski wrote: post #27
rrdharan wrote: post #5

They’re not wrong… PHP7+ is blazing fast, has a huge library, gradual typing support, etc. If starting a new project in the space where they all “compete”, I would choose PHP7 or PHP8 with Laravel or Symfony (or maybe even WordPress) over Rails, Django and probably over NodeJS.

You lost me at WordPress haha... Ive a lot of love for WP, but I don't really get the appeal of extending it past blogging... if you're doing anything more complicated it's pretty trivial to implement blogging functions in your site.

The days of WordPress being used for only blogging are long gone. I have many, many multimillion dollar clients using it as the hub for their whole company (none of which have blogs). It's crazy how it just...works. A little PHP-FPM tweaks here, a couple NGINX tweaks there, and you're off to the races. Very little maintenance, almost no downtime ever.
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