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My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

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Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#631

Post by mattgreenrocks »

kevviiinn wrote: post #508
throw9away6 wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People that don’t cheat much think that cheating is easy. Often times I see cheaters put in almost the same amount of effort as non cheaters the cheaters just get a higher probability of success.

But the long term success for cheating is actually much lower, those who actually learned things will do better in the long term even if they have a lower probability of short term success Many humans seem to be incredibly short sighted

> the long term success for cheating is actually much lower, those who actually learned things will do better in the long term even if they have a lower probability of short term success

I want to believe this, but I'm not sure it's always true. Timing of opportunities matters a lot. Someone who is not as skilled in programming probably cheated their way into a FAANG job during the height of the pandemic and made absolute bank, perhaps being able to sock away $200k-$300k since then. That money could then be invested and start compounding, leading to a materially different outcome from someone else who played it by the rules and was better.

The long-term for the cheater might be to simply find a less demanding job and continue riding the prestige hike they got when they snuck into the FAANG job.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#632

Post by fnimick »

belfalas wrote: post #630
giantg2 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also possible the company is setting themselves up for ethics/regulatory issues by selecting for individuals willing to cheat. I guess this should be no surprise since the culture at Amazon already sucks.

Sadly selecting for individuals who cheat might help the company navigate ethics/regulatory issues. I have seen many instances of people treating regulation as an annoying roadblock to work around, not something worth honoring.

That's something this community celebrates. Look at how much Uber and AirBNB are touted as success stories when really they were illegal enterprises allowing individuals to violate the law (taxi licenses, rental laws) for profit.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#633

Post by mattgreenrocks »

BeetleB wrote: post #545
mattgreenrocks wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. I've gravitated towards difficult domains in my career because they serve as a very effective filter on the people actually applying for them, they keep me sharp, and people that have needs in these areas tend to less of the stereotypical "idea people," that are looking to milk those who can execute.

While what you say is true, my experience at such jobs is they also tend to have the most dysfunctional people/teams, unfortunately. And career growth tends to be very stagnant, and working conditions are poor (the supply of labor exceeds the demand). Switching to "dumb" jobs made my life a lot happier. While it's easier, the demand exceeds the supply. Easier career growth, and better colleagues (no egos, etc).

You still need to be picky about teams. Where I am currently pays decently, has interesting work, and is small enough that there is meaningful progression, and is low drama. (We're hiring, check my profile for email if you like some of the stuff I mentioned above!)

So, my one example disputes your claim. :)

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#634

Post by fnimick »

throw9away6 wrote: post #536
p0pcult wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>what he needs to do to survive Robbing a loaf of bread so your children can eat is very different from cheating on a test/interview for a job with a kingly salary. One is doing what one needs to do to survive, and morally justifiable. The other is pathetic and craven.

Not really any different. Nobody was hurt in the latter case.

> Nobody was hurt in the latter case.

Except the honest competitor who was passed over for the position, or the promotion?

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#635

Post by godelski »

mirkules wrote: post #147
dariusj18 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I let any of my interviewees know that it is ok to use google, I just want to know what they searched for. I'm not running a trivia contest, so if they forgot the name of something or need a little refresh, that's fine.

The way I combat this is by asking questions about their current jobs, then diving deep into the technical problems they faced. It requires a lot more preparation for each candidate, but it ensures it’s not a trivia test but a discussion. One of my favorite interviews (as an interviewer) was when a SDET candidate provided a link to their website. When I visited it there was an issue loading some page. So I asked him…

This is how I was interviewed when I was a scientist/engineer and how I got interviewed at gov labs when I switched to programming. I still refreshed material for my interviews but they were focused on the actual job areas. I was really shocked that this was not common in the software world and feels weird that as an AI research people are asking me about leet code and not about mathematical formulas, limitations, and analysis of architectures or my own research. PhD scientist interviews (at labs and universities) are essentially a short form of people's discretions with a focus on Q&A. It's always appeared successful to me and I figured that the leet code was always because 1) momentum and 2) there's so many applications that an arbitrary filter has no realistic effect on outcomes other than reducing the number of candidates (due to the difficulties of measuring merit). (Similar to university admissions) But I think we all have to admit that meritocracy is not realistic and act under this belief. It's fine to have arbitrary filters if we recognize them as arbitrary but not if we go around and tout superiority for passing these. But I guess that's a corollary to Goodhart's Law

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#636

Post by kelipso »

JohnFen wrote: post #387
licebmi__at__ wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody claimed that americans never cheated, yet the blame of things getting worse is put on GP on those coming from “low trust” societies. It’s a xenophobic lie, like if Americans don’t celebrate lying on positive euphemisms like “fake it till you make it” or “being a good salesman”

> if Americans don’t celebrate lying on positive euphemisms like “fake it till you make it” or “being a good salesman” Most Americans that I know don't consider those phrases to reflect positive values at all. They're used disparagingly against people who really think like that.

Either you live in some bubble or you're just lying lol.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#637

Post by kelipso »

asimpletune wrote: post #281
passion__desire wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans cheat at earth-scale by bringing about into existence of intricate systems that benefit them immensely.

Yeah, I mean one thing that's interesting about the world is that every country cheats, but we all cheat in our own ways. I don't think there's anyway to get around it. That said, I don't really want American culture to continue down this "if the ends justify the means" trend that we've been on. We're not cut out for it! We'll get our lunch eaten.

America has been "going down the road" of ends justify the means since WW2. What exactly was the massacre in the Korean war and Vietnam war if not. And sanctions to starve citizens of numerous countries. Etc etc.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#638

Post by p0pcult »

throw9away6 wrote: post #536
p0pcult wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>what he needs to do to survive Robbing a loaf of bread so your children can eat is very different from cheating on a test/interview for a job with a kingly salary. One is doing what one needs to do to survive, and morally justifiable. The other is pathetic and craven.

Not really any different. Nobody was hurt in the latter case.

I find it amusing that you are using a throwaway account for comments on this topic. It's as good as an admission that you know the behavior is wrong.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#639

Post by p0pcult »

camel_gopher wrote: post #284
p0pcult wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>what he needs to do to survive Robbing a loaf of bread so your children can eat is very different from cheating on a test/interview for a job with a kingly salary. One is doing what one needs to do to survive, and morally justifiable. The other is pathetic and craven.

Sure; but which is which will vary from person to person.

Yes, I am aware that sociopaths exist.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#640

Post by guenthert »

austin-cheney wrote: post #404
asimpletune wrote: post #115

Reading some of the comments in this thread I'm surprised. It seems that a substantial number of people think one of the following: a.) cheating on interviews is ok, because interviews don't reflect the actual job b.) this is acceptable because the promotion process is distinct from the interview process or c.) that the cheaters clearly are skilled after all because of all their success, as evidenced by being promote…

It sounds like you find cheating shameful for vague moralistic reasons that you have not disclosed. Software is full of cheating. I am really convinced that maybe 85% (that's actually being generous) of developers have no idea what they are doing. They know enough to complete some tiny agile tasks and push a few lines into a pull request. These people are either suffering from imposter syndrome, deliberately cheating…

> There are a couple of reasons why such prolific cheating is allowed (and even encouraged):

Not sure how the listed points would be mitigated by cheating.

Further:

> There are no ethics in software.

Well, speak for yourself, but obviously many developers are greatly concerned about the license of their product as well as of the tools they use.

> Many developers are grossly entitled. The most important word for most developers: easiness. Comparatively nothing else matters, and they will fight you to death on this.

Well, many might be, but insisting on easiness might have another reason: it's always more difficult than it seems in the beginning and if a project ought to have a chance of becoming successful it ought to seem easy. That's just speaking from experience. If you want to get to the moon, you better plan for an Apollo-size budget and a few explosions.

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