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My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

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Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#581

Post by georgeecollins »

boondoggle16 wrote: post #572
georgeecollins wrote: post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Like, there was a time where this kind of personality type would just go get an MBA It seems like you are implying that a person who gets an MBA is the type of person who would cheat on a test. This fits with a ubiquitous contempt for MBAs and also project managers that comes up a lot on this site. There is a lot of room for criticism of business schools and middle managers in tech. But if you really think of peop…

Respectfully, I disagree. At it's core, business school is the study of making money. How to make power and social status numbers go up. The business domain is interesting, and intellectually deep and rewarding, but without the money, all interest goes away. The money is the point. With tech, there are complicated technical mechanisms. They still exist to make money, but, there are many layers of translation in betwe…

That's a good argument, honestly. Where I would disagree with at its core an MBA studies how to manage and administer an organization. It's in the name. That's also how schools see themselves, right or wrong.

In the US we associate business and management with money, so maybe you are right. I tend to think people are people and you get "ends justify the means" types in managers, entrepreneurs and even engineers.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#582

Post by boondoggle16 »

SkyBelow wrote: post #546
asimpletune wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just out of curiosity: do you think there's nothing wrong with cheating on an interview, and if so would you do it?

When someone asks what your biggest weakness is during an interview, and you don't answer honestly because the honest answer to these sorts of questions are socially unacceptable and isn't what the interviewer is looking for to begin with, is that cheating? Or is it taking into account the context of the question and answering the question the interviewer wanted answer? I could see how both answers are justified, and…

I just want to point out that this is an amazing comment. These gray areas are everywhere, and cognizance of them betrays intellectual rigor and honesty. I salute you good sir.

edit: I just realized there's a great irony here. I salute you, while recognizing that honesty and intellectual rigor is not valued in the world. I guess that's why it's valued so highly by people like me?

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#583

Post by mock-possum »

tristor wrote: post #160

I'm probably going to get roasted for saying this, but this is completely unsurprising to me. When I was in college, folks from India and other low trust societies would mercilessly cheat on their projects and exams, blatantly helping one another on individual works, and the college knew about it and didn't care. When I had brought this up at one point, I was told by a professor that it was a cultural difference that…

> folks from India and other low trust societies would mercilessly cheat on their projects and exams, blatantly helping one another on individual works, and the college knew about it and didn't care. When I had brought this up at one point, I was told by a professor that it was a cultural difference that had to be respected

I mean I'm sympathetic to your experience, the treatment you're describing is unfair, but... that also sounds pretty racist.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#584

Post by inglor_cz »

codebreake wrote: post #563
kevviiinn wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the long term success for cheating is actually much lower, those who actually learned things will do better in the long term even if they have a lower probability of short term success Many humans seem to be incredibly short sighted

I disagree, I don’t believe Trump and Elon musk are ethical and they are very successful in terms of power and money.

That said, Falcon 9 actually flies and is a very reliable rocket; SpaceX does not seem to be "cheating" in the classical sense of the word, but making money due to genuine innovative capability.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#585

Post by boondoggle16 »

asimpletune wrote: post #382
byyyy wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As a passing thought I've noticed that there's also sort of like a fierce loyalty to defending LLM's in the forums, often by people who display a certain amount of ignorance as to how they work. I wonder if there's a similar dynamic there as to the people who are justifying the cheaters in the comments? No it's the other way around. Hinton, basically the father of "AI" and other real experts who are involved in the…

There's a lot of great stuff in this comment. > There's a fierce artificial downplaying of AI when it comes to programming. [...] I think this is the delusional group. This could definitely be the case. I personally wouldn't bet against AI as in all of AI. I, like many, think it's a matter of time and technology, but I do think this particular moment in time, and this particular technology is over hyped. I'll just be…

Greed is not in our own best interest emotionally... but it is probably in our own best interest materially.

Nature doesn't require that we be happy, only that we procreate. Excess resources often make us feel comfortable enough to procreate, despite any unhappiness we may feel.

I think you've nailed a sad reality.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#587

Post by boondoggle16 »

guhidalg wrote: post #361
byyyy wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As a passing thought I've noticed that there's also sort of like a fierce loyalty to defending LLM's in the forums, often by people who display a certain amount of ignorance as to how they work. I wonder if there's a similar dynamic there as to the people who are justifying the cheaters in the comments? No it's the other way around. Hinton, basically the father of "AI" and other real experts who are involved in the…

> I think you don't realize how it's a dog eat dog world out there and people will do anything to succeed. The grifters and cheaters of our world are an opportunity cost. Who knows how much more productive or fair the world would be if we didn't tolerate them? By allowing them to succeed, we deny a world where they wouldn't need to exist.

Where would we be, if we didn't tolerate those that drag us down?

Careful, this kind of thinking leads to ideas which are unacceptable in the current world :)

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#588

Post by mock-possum »

dariusj18 wrote: post #107
heelix wrote: post #27

I've done a lot of screening interviews and cheating does happen. Some of my favorites: * developer attempts to pass something off as video lag, as he attempts to lip sync someone else's answer. * developer had printed all the 'common' answers on the wall behind his computer, and would look up to them for reference as we were talking. Then the tape came off and covered him in a a paper stack overflow. * the glorious…

I let any of my interviewees know that it is ok to use google, I just want to know what they searched for. I'm not running a trivia contest, so if they forgot the name of something or need a little refresh, that's fine.

yeah same. it's not a recitation / memorization challenge, it's an honest "if you ran into X at work, show me what would you do" exercise. It's hard to imagine an answer that doesn't start with "I'd probably google it." How do you evaluate the quality of the search results? How would you scan a page to quickly find the salient details? How would you test what you'd found to determine whether it was an effective solution? etc.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#589

Post by wing-_-nuts »

justin_oaks wrote: post #501
wing-_-nuts wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you absolutely are cheating yourself if you cheat on something you're supposed to be learning. On the other hand, I have a tendency to be brutally honest about my own knowledge and capabilities, and it has bitten me multiple times. I've gotten negative performance review feedback from management that was word for word from the 'things I think I can improve'. I've gotten passed over for jobs and promotions bec…

>brutally honest about my own knowledge and capabilities Is this a lack of confidence? > I've gotten passed over for jobs and promotions because I don't do a good enough job of 'selling' my experience. Selling your experience IS an important skill. Other factors may have played a part too. > successful software engineers I've met also have the ability to bullshit Is it their bullshit that gets them to be successful?…

Maybe 'bullshitting' was too strong of a word.

I was always raised that you don't brag about yourself, you don't take credit for things you didn't really do, and you don't over promise and under deliver.

As I've gained experience, I've learned that people can take self deprecating things as gospel and as a worker it's your job to talk up your abilities and invitations to identify 'things you can improve' have to be spun in a positive way. As much as I hate to admit it, salesmanship, presentation, and ones ability to 'smooth talk' seems to get you further than raw technical ability. I don't hold it against devs that are able to do that, it's just been an adjustment for me.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#590

Post by nosianu »

trgn wrote: post #336
nosianu wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This contradicts what we read here about cheating being very often tolerated in higher education institutions in the US, because money. Usually I try including at least a few links, but in this case I think anybody who has read these threads right here on HN should remember those numerous posts and discussions? I remember comments from educators who wanted to do something but the higher-ups prevented it, for example,…

Two things can be true at the same time. There is a lot of cheating in america, but nowhere near as much as in low-trust countries. fwiw - I think Americans value integrity a lot more than most other places, and academic cheating is not nearly as common.

> Two things can be true at the same time.

Of course, but the commenter I replied to made a specific statement, first sentence, making it sound to my reading - and I don't think I'm reading something into it that isn't meant to be there? - as if it's a lot less in the US. But even a little bit of searching, and every single time the topic comes up here, which usually is for higher education so I'm not making any statement about anything below, ends up with a lot of comments, and no opposition to them, saying there is a lot of cheating there.

Examples:

https://academicintegrity.org/resources/facts-and-statistics

> McCabe’s original research and subsequent follow-up studies show that more than 60 percent of university students freely admit to cheating in some form.

https://proctoredu.com/blog/tpost/5dk67zrns1-academic-dishon...

> The level of cheating in high school according to statistics is extremely high. One of the most thorough studies, carried out by Dr. Donald McCabe, reveals that about 95% of polled students (both undergraduates and graduates) admitted to having cheated in some form.

https://www.npr.org/2021/08/27/1031255390/reports-of-cheatin...

Therefore, it surprised my that the original commenter made such a strong statement.

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