My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022) • Hacker News Board

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#421

Post by stale2002 » Wed, May 10, 2023, 4:09 PM UTC

passion__desire wrote: post #388

tristor wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they also need to fix their process to actually test skills. If we're being honest, LC style interviews aren't even about testing skills, it's trying to proxy for testing raw intelligence (or at least the ability to remember and regurgitate lots of facts). If companies could just IQ test people and hire by IQ, there'd be a lot less weirdness in interviews, but that's illegal (and probably rightly so).

https://medium.com/incerto/iq-is-largely-a-pseudoscientific-... IQ is largely a pseudoscientific swindle by Nassim Nicholas Taleb

IQ scores are highly correlated with actual success, undeniably so.

Maybe IQ doesn't exactly track "intelligence", or whatever that is, but it is certainly tracking something that is correlated to success.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#422

Post by politician » Wed, May 10, 2023, 4:10 PM UTC

tristor wrote: post #160

I'm probably going to get roasted for saying this, but this is completely unsurprising to me. When I was in college, folks from India and other low trust societies would mercilessly cheat on their projects and exams, blatantly helping one another on individual works, and the college knew about it and didn't care. When I had brought this up at one point, I was told by a professor that it was a cultural difference that…

> Luckily, my professor was right though...

The explanation provided by the professor assuaged your concerns, but their salary was funded in part from the tuitions paid by the cheaters.

The 'grift' is a collaboration between the academic institutions that tolerate cheating and award degrees and GPA scores, and the cheating students that game the process.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#423

Post by raghudotcc » Wed, May 10, 2023, 4:10 PM UTC

archagon wrote: post #412

raghudotcc wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am from India, and I just recently completed my Masters from a US university. I have never cheated in my life when it comes to interviews, exams, or assignments; not once. I am worried that calling us “low-trust” because of your experience with a few students might lead others to think that the entire country that is so diverse and large is comprised of just an incompetent set of cheaters. I agree that a lot of stu…

Not OP, but to be clear, "low trust society" has a specific sociological meaning relating to interpersonal trust: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_trust_and_low_trust_socie... It doesn't mean that individuals from that society are less trustworthy.

I realized that’s what they meant but I was worried that tying low-trust with cheating students from a country that has a tarnished image because of tech scams and low-wage tech workers might paint a different picture to those who don’t know about the term or OPs intent.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#424

Post by frumper » Wed, May 10, 2023, 4:10 PM UTC

bumby wrote: post #375

JohnFen wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it was a cultural difference that had to be respected I strongly disagree with that professor. Dishonesty does not have to be, and absolutely should not be, respected. Even if it is a "cultural difference" [citation required].

> "absolutely should not be, respected" Taking issue with the 'absolute' part: The cultural context does impact what gets respected, though. For example, having an organization that avoids nepotism is generally respected in the U.S. There are other countries/cultures that do not, at least to the same degree. From their perspective, the more respectable act is to help out those in your tribe/family when you are in a p…

Parent specifically said dishonesty should not be respected. Helping people in your family/community is a fine goal as long as it’s not dishonest. If Bob gets hired at global corp A and is able to hire his unqualified family to the detriment of corp A then that’s just as bad. If they’re qualified then there might be a culture clash, but it doesn’t sound necessarily dishonest.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#425

Post by ksaun » Wed, May 10, 2023, 4:11 PM UTC

asimpletune wrote: post #115

Reading some of the comments in this thread I'm surprised. It seems that a substantial number of people think one of the following: a.) cheating on interviews is ok, because interviews don't reflect the actual job b.) this is acceptable because the promotion process is distinct from the interview process or c.) that the cheaters clearly are skilled after all because of all their success, as evidenced by being promote…

> "there will probably be incredible opportunity down the road to combat this,"

I am curious to hear more about what you mean by this.

I crave living in a high trust society. I've attempted to act as though I do (though not with complete success), but reality often rebuffs me. I am discouraged by the high (and seemingly increasing) "capacity to benefit from dishonesty," especially as I feel powerless to meaningfully affect this trend/condition.

It sounds like you see ways in which society can shift to be higher trust. Can you elaborate?

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#426

Post by faeriechangling » Wed, May 10, 2023, 4:13 PM UTC

11101010001100 wrote: post #131

As a teacher, I 'work' with cheaters. Some learn their lesson, some don't. I try to explain that while you might be able to cheat in a school, you certainly won't be able to cheat on the job. I guess this is a naive perspective.

You can go a long way in work without doing anything of value by getting credit for any success and dodging blame for any failure. Cheating goes a long way here.

Don’t even get me started on cheating metrics.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#427

Post by archagon » Wed, May 10, 2023, 4:13 PM UTC

raghudotcc wrote: post #423

archagon wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not OP, but to be clear, "low trust society" has a specific sociological meaning relating to interpersonal trust: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_trust_and_low_trust_socie... It doesn't mean that individuals from that society are less trustworthy.

I realized that’s what they meant but I was worried that tying low-trust with cheating students from a country that has a tarnished image because of tech scams and low-wage tech workers might paint a different picture to those who don’t know about the term or OPs intent.

Fair, thanks for the clarification.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#428

Post by dennis_jeeves1 » Wed, May 10, 2023, 4:13 PM UTC

kristianbrigman wrote: post #315

spicyusername wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I relate heavily to the spirit of your comments. Wouldn't we all be better off if we lived in a society that is built on trust and honesty. However, I think you're being a little naive if you think the days of "yesteryear" were somehow different in man's capacity and willingness to do what he needs to do to survive. I mean in every facet of life we're basically awash in never before seen capacity to benefit from dish…

Two fundamental truths: - nature is inherently competitive. - civilization and culture temper this but requires vigilance to maintain. The second implies that some cultures may be more effective at tempering nature’s excesses than others… and also that it can change in a way in which it becomes less or more effective, or at least effective for different things…

>vigilance to maintain.

I think this part is a crucial part, that many comments here miss. Honesty is not useful if it's not rewarded, consequently if cheating can be rewarding, because of non-vigilance. We see this not only among humans but also in animals/birds, and in general nature.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#429

Post by fauxpause_ » Wed, May 10, 2023, 4:13 PM UTC

aidenn0 wrote: post #370

fauxpause_ wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the assessment has no relationship to the job requirements then the test assessment cannot be justified either

That's a silly argument. There are many jobs at which being smart is an advantage. IQ tests correlate fairly well with being smart. Giving an IQ test could then give you a group of people that are more likely to be smart than the initial interviewing population. Assuming the job is not "taking IQ tests" is the assessment unjustified?

Seems irrelevant if the people getting the job by cheating are considered high performers getting promotions

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#430

Post by KETpXDDzR » Wed, May 10, 2023, 4:13 PM UTC

This sounds like a business idea to me. Rent small rooms in highly populated areas, make sure cell phone signals are blocked, let interviewed do their virtual interviews in this room on a provided computer. Sell it as "certified interview" to big tech.