My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022) • Hacker News Board

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#401

Post by ghostbrainalpha » Wed, May 10, 2023, 3:59 PM UTC

pythonb3sss wrote: post #359

I dislike cheating. I've taken ~50 interviews and in 90% of them cheated: a) I could hear their keyboard clacking when they googled the answer b) they'd stall with "umm" and "ooo" while their friend googles the answer and shows it to them c) (the best one) they'd memorize everything from leetcode style solutions and definitions to mathematics MCQs. In my country, you're the odd one out if you have an exam or an inter…

> c) (the best one) memorize everything from leetcode style solutions and definitions to mathematics MCQs.

Couldn't it be argued that memorizing leetcode solutions IS NOT cheating? Seems like it would be better to understand things at a fundamental level, but its still proof of ability to master the problem in and takes a lot of effort.

Especially if the person was upfront about the fact they could solve the problem but still didn't understand everything about it.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#402

Post by tsimionescu » Wed, May 10, 2023, 3:59 PM UTC

nosianu wrote: post #261

timthelion wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having grown up in America and moved to Czechia for college I have to say that I was absolutely shocked by the level of cheating both by Czechs as well as those from "farther east" like Ukraine and Russia. Just brazen obvious sheeting like taking notes into exams and hiding them. Cooperating during exams. Even collaboration to distract the teacher during exams. When I was at college in the US getting caught cheating…

This contradicts what we read here about cheating being very often tolerated in higher education institutions in the US, because money. Usually I try including at least a few links, but in this case I think anybody who has read these threads right here on HN should remember those numerous posts and discussions? I remember comments from educators who wanted to do something but the higher-ups prevented it, for example,…

As someone born and raised in Romania, I can 100% confirm what the above poster was saying for Romania as well. Even if cheating may be widespread through corruption and other means in the States, it is at least theoretically treated much more seriously.

The worse penalty possible for cheating (IF you get caught and IF the teacher/professor even cares, which was not by any means universal) is getting a grade of 1 (out of 10) on that specific item (exam, project etc. ).

This is even true for the national country-wide exams you take in 8th and 12th grades: if you are caught cheating, you get a 1/10 on that specific exam, but can still take all the rest, and will be forced to re-take the one you cheated on in the next session.

The only thing treated more seriously were bachelor's/master's/PhD theses, where you could face plagiarism charges. But even this is mostly theoretical, especially for the bachelor's, since only some cursory verification was ever performed, at least at my university (one of the biggest ones in the capital).

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#403

Post by giantg2 » Wed, May 10, 2023, 3:59 PM UTC

asimpletune wrote: post #115

Reading some of the comments in this thread I'm surprised. It seems that a substantial number of people think one of the following: a.) cheating on interviews is ok, because interviews don't reflect the actual job b.) this is acceptable because the promotion process is distinct from the interview process or c.) that the cheaters clearly are skilled after all because of all their success, as evidenced by being promote…

"were true, dyed in the wool nerds who simply thought making stuff was cool."

Now we're in 2023 - where making money is cool and building things is just a necessary evil to achieve that.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#404

Post by austin-cheney » Wed, May 10, 2023, 4:01 PM UTC

asimpletune wrote: post #115

Reading some of the comments in this thread I'm surprised. It seems that a substantial number of people think one of the following: a.) cheating on interviews is ok, because interviews don't reflect the actual job b.) this is acceptable because the promotion process is distinct from the interview process or c.) that the cheaters clearly are skilled after all because of all their success, as evidenced by being promote…

It sounds like you find cheating shameful for vague moralistic reasons that you have not disclosed.

Software is full of cheating. I am really convinced that maybe 85% (that's actually being generous) of developers have no idea what they are doing. They know enough to complete some tiny agile tasks and push a few lines into a pull request. These people are either suffering from imposter syndrome, deliberately cheating, or just don't care. All the real decisions are made by that last 15%. That's why almost nobody can write software anymore without a plethora of open source software delivering most of their product for them.

In my mind if you aren't part of that last 15% you are cheating whether or not its deliberate. Everybody wants to get paid.

If you want to reduce the amount of cheating in software then the industry must be willing to impose minimal standards of acceptable practice. The industry is not willing to do so.

There are a couple of reasons why such prolific cheating is allowed (and even encouraged):

* Developers are not taught to plan. I take this for granted being a military guy, but seriously I have seen many children with a greater planning ability than many developers tasked with a new product effort. Its like the abstractness of software completely destroys any capability to put simple steps in order. This is why many businesses will offload this to business analysts and project managers.

* Developers are not taught to write. Although many of these people have bachelor's degrees so many cannot put their thoughts into even a simple bullet list.

* There are no ethics in software. The closest thing for most developers might be something like an NDA at initial on boarding. Otherwise, ethics is entirely off loaded to a legal team who mandate areas of compliance.

* The goals of hiring/employment often do not align to the skills required to perform product delivery. This indicates employers have completely lost faith in candidate preparation and/or candidate availability and are just willing to take what they can get. Typically that means dumbing things down to widen the pool of availability.

* Many developers are grossly entitled. The most important word for most developers: easiness. Comparatively nothing else matters, and they will fight you to death on this.

Edit: two grammar corrections.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#405

Post by passion__desire » Wed, May 10, 2023, 4:01 PM UTC

asimpletune wrote: post #223

scarface74 wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So who is being harmed by someone not reversing a binary tree by memory for an interview?

Just out of curiosity: do you think there's nothing wrong with cheating on an interview, and if so would you do it?

What if current interview process heavily favours fast thinkers, memorizers and crammers? Shouldn't slow thinkers figure out a way to beat the system?

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#406

Post by giantg2 » Wed, May 10, 2023, 4:02 PM UTC

tristor wrote: post #160

I'm probably going to get roasted for saying this, but this is completely unsurprising to me. When I was in college, folks from India and other low trust societies would mercilessly cheat on their projects and exams, blatantly helping one another on individual works, and the college knew about it and didn't care. When I had brought this up at one point, I was told by a professor that it was a cultural difference that…

I mean, I do see the appeal. I would guess it's better to cheat and be successful than to be honorable and be a failure. I can say that the latter really sucks.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#407

Post by bombcar » Wed, May 10, 2023, 4:03 PM UTC

devoutsalsa wrote: post #352

bombcar wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds similar to how (most? all?) life insurance policies will pay out for suicide after a two-year waiting period - the idea being that those who are dedicated enough to plan out that far in advance don't actually end up going through with it, or it's a rounding error. So perhaps the medical exam stuff should be swapped around; everyone can get life insurance, but if you want payout for certain things to kick in be…

I think any insurance company would have a lifelong suicide exclusion if they could. I’m pretty sure they are legally obligated to pay after two years, as it’s be too easy for nearly any insurance company to claim most deaths were possibly a suicide. The main point being that you can’t pay the mortgage on your house, which may be the sole reason you got life insurance, if the benefits aren’t being paid out. Also, the…

The problem for the industry with the "no questions asked" plans is the only people who sign up for them are the ones who have no other option, which makes them more expensive, which makes the only people who sign up for them ... etc etc etc.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#408

Post by stronglikedan » Wed, May 10, 2023, 4:03 PM UTC

asimpletune wrote: post #115

Reading some of the comments in this thread I'm surprised. It seems that a substantial number of people think one of the following: a.) cheating on interviews is ok, because interviews don't reflect the actual job b.) this is acceptable because the promotion process is distinct from the interview process or c.) that the cheaters clearly are skilled after all because of all their success, as evidenced by being promote…

> that it isn't inherent to the discipline of technology itself anymore

Sorry to say, but it never was. Anti-cheaters have always been the extreme minority in every profession since the dawn of man.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#409

Post by wootland » Wed, May 10, 2023, 4:03 PM UTC

welshwelsh wrote: post #390

wootland wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd add d) when all of the gains are captured by execs and investors, if you don't do everything you can to maximize your return and minimize your input, you're being exploited. It's strange to me that anyone would care about people cheating at job interviews and not say CEO pay that's 1,000X the average employee. More power to those who can balance things in their favor against those who have everything to gain and…

It's not true that all of the gains are captured by investors. Alphabet's CEO makes about 1000x the average googler, but that's only about 1% of salaries. What I mean is that for every $100 a Googler makes, about $1 goes to the CEO. It's not like top executives are claiming ing most of the value for themselves, the majority of the value a worker generates is returned to them in their compensation.

There are reasons beyond direct redistribution of the CEO's salary to take issue with the vast inequality represented by that 1,000X. The board and CEO will place all of their network in the executive ranks, cutting off access to rank and file employees. These people also use their out-sized reward to have a huge impact on society at large outside of the company. The negative externalities created by exec compensation are borne by the public.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#410

Post by 908B64B197 » Wed, May 10, 2023, 4:03 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #175

asimpletune wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, you're definitely right about that. I wasn't there for the golden era, which I imagine to be something like Jobs and Woz phreaking on the phones and ripping of Xerox as sort of the "noble" form of evil. It's hard to speak quantitatively about qualitative things, but that' something that enters the discussion as soon as words like "more" or "less" are uttered. In any case, you're absolutely correct that I'm defi…

You mean the same era where Jobs cheated Woz out of his fair compensation and took credit for the Breakout game?

Putting a permanent dent into their friendship.