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My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

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Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you disagree with the parent comment, this sort of hostility is uncalled for.

[flagged]

This kind of stuff doesn't hurt my feelings, but I do have a question. If I'm being a "bootlicker", how does that justify hostility?

Wouldn't that be good for you and others who feel the same as you? Like, shouldn't you actually encourage "bootlickers" if you have this kind of devil may cry, realpolitik view of morality? Otherwise I'm just competition right?

There are no wrong answers here, I really just want to understand what you think better.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#272

Reading some of the comments in this thread I'm surprised. It seems that a substantial number of people think one of the following: a.) cheating on interviews is ok, because interviews don't reflect the actual job b.) this is acceptable because the promotion process is distinct from the interview process or c.) that the cheaters clearly are skilled after all because of all their success, as evidenced by being promote…

If people can do there job well enough to get promoted, that does tell you that the interview process is broken and not indicative of how well someone can perform on the job.

Also, our current society don't respect slow but deliberate thinkers like June Huh and expect them to perform better at a sprint (interview) rather than marathon (job environment).

https://www.quantamagazine.org/june-huh-high-school-dropout-...

On any given day, Huh does about three hours of focused work.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#273
post #79

Yes, it's fundamentally unfair to those interviewees who don't cheat. And the process is broken. However, the conclusion this person reaches - we must conduct these broken interviews in person so the cheaters can't cheat - is the wrong one. Look at it from the point of view of the hiring company now, not the interviewer. They got a person who was good enough (based on the merits of their actual work, not interview pe…

It seems those that have a fundamental problem with cheating are in the minority. Reading through the comments leaves me only sad. Based on how I believe the world works, and on larger patterns at play here, this general cultural trend (if this is in fact what it is) will backfire. If this is deemed culturally acceptable, and one extrapolates this pattern further, there is little deeper value that a culture has to of…

I’m not sure it’s a cultural trend, but I’d say users of Blind are not the typically developer. That’s not to dismiss it, but that a subset of a population will always have dishonest people.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#274
So, I teach IT at a university, and of course part of me has concerns.

But honestly, at heart, I respect the hacker ethos more than I do the majority of "big (or little) tech" business hiring processes. They accomplished the job.

When I deal with cheating, I see it as my job to be "ahead of it" or I'm not worthy to teach? (And also, I don't much see it my job to be a cheating cop as much as it is my job to teach.)

PERFECT case in point; all the Chat AI things that came out recently. I have a few multiple choice tests that I used to be able to recycle pretty easily. But ChatGPT comes out, and can get 100% with explanations on them. What that meant to me was "time to rewrite at least some of the questions."

And so today, I tell my students exactly this. Most of the time it'll probably be correct, but I've deliberately put like 5 or 6 in there that the Chat things confidently answer completely incorrectly. Good luck.

(note: Yes, they're open-internet / take home. They weren't until the pandemic, and to my complete surprise, my averages came out exactly the same whether or not they were closed-book one hour in class or open-internet, take a whole weekend)

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#275

Reading some of the comments in this thread I'm surprised. It seems that a substantial number of people think one of the following: a.) cheating on interviews is ok, because interviews don't reflect the actual job b.) this is acceptable because the promotion process is distinct from the interview process or c.) that the cheaters clearly are skilled after all because of all their success, as evidenced by being promote…

>As a passing thought I've noticed that there's also sort of like a fierce loyalty to defending LLM's in the forums, often by people who display a certain amount of ignorance as to how they work. I wonder if there's a similar dynamic there as to the people who are justifying the cheaters in the comments?

No it's the other way around. Hinton, basically the father of "AI" and other real experts who are involved in the creation of LLMs are massively divided about the future. Hinton even says the AI actually understands you. The fact that there's division among the real experts (ie not you or me) shows theirs legitimacy in the defense.

There's a fierce artificial downplaying of AI when it comes to programming. A lot of people say that it's not remotely close to replacing programmers. I think this is the delusional group. It's not replacing us yet, but it's obviously close and the trendline is unmistakable.

I think it occurs because a lot of people's identity rests on their actual ability to program. They think they're superior programmers and the fact that a machine is on track to trivialize the skills they take so much pride in causes them to dismiss the technology in the face of actual experts who fear and question it. There's bias on both extremes and one Hallmark of bias is when one fails to address the division and actual controversy.

You have failed to address the controversy instead you categorize people who "defend" AI as people who don't "understand" it and you imply it's some psychological quirk or bias people have. I agree somewhat, but clearly not all who "defend" AI are like this as their are preeminent experts who are on the "defence" side. Instead I think your behavior is an exhibition of other common psychological defensive quirks and biases.

I think you don't realize how it's a dog eat dog world out there and people will do anything to succeed. Maybe your born with talent, so you worship and defend that talent with calls to uphold "integrity." Others, however, will do anything in their power to stay afloat in the face of your "talent." It's more about survival for humans then it is about integrity. Do people really want to live a shitty life getting sub 100k salaries only letting people like you take up all the high paying jobs in the name of "integrity"? No. No one does... not even you, but you have the luxury of talent or ability to master those interviews... that is the only differentiator.

I bet if you couldn't pass those interviews you would be in the same boat. You defend integrity not because you are a stand up person, but because you have the ability to succeed without violating your integrity. That's all.

One thing to note about people is often their truth strangely aligns with their circumstance in life. Why? Most people do not seek actual truth. Instead they construct the truth as a scaffold to support themselves and the weight of their sins. You are no different. I'm pretty sure you are quite good at the technical interview and That strange alignment with your philosophy on interview integrity is Not a coincidence.

Personally I'm unique in this regard. I'm good at interviewing but in my quest in seeking the objective truth of the world... I have, to my own detriment, constructed a life where my truth is not in alignment with what I am in actuality.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#276
post #27

I've done a lot of screening interviews and cheating does happen. Some of my favorites: * developer attempts to pass something off as video lag, as he attempts to lip sync someone else's answer. * developer had printed all the 'common' answers on the wall behind his computer, and would look up to them for reference as we were talking. Then the tape came off and covered him in a a paper stack overflow. * the glorious…

Tangentially related… Life insurance companies (in the USA 20 years ago when I sold it) would require a medical exam for every life insurance application. If the applicant commits fraud by having someone else take the examination (usually a blood draw, height and weight measurement, and maybe a heart EKG for bigger policies), the policy is considered valid after two years. Even if the insurance company finds out frau…

Sounds similar to how (most? all?) life insurance policies will pay out for suicide after a two-year waiting period - the idea being that those who are dedicated enough to plan out that far in advance don't actually end up going through with it, or it's a rounding error.

So perhaps the medical exam stuff should be swapped around; everyone can get life insurance, but if you want payout for certain things to kick in before two years, you get a medical and pass.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#277

Reading some of the comments in this thread I'm surprised. It seems that a substantial number of people think one of the following: a.) cheating on interviews is ok, because interviews don't reflect the actual job b.) this is acceptable because the promotion process is distinct from the interview process or c.) that the cheaters clearly are skilled after all because of all their success, as evidenced by being promote…

You don't actually offer any argument other than saying it's bad cause it's bad.

If everyone who cheated and passed performed so well that they got promotions then the world would be a much better place than reality where most cheaters fail hilariously.

If you can't even be bothered to give employees a real interview you don't care about the company and at that point the company is already bloated.

What kind of person are you that when reading a story and seeing 100 wrong things you pick out the one thing that is arguable and die on that hill? An VLLM sycophant?

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a cheating doctor would prescribe / perform unnecessary drugs / procedures / surgeries for personal gain or out of carelessness.

This is basically how western medicine operates in the US to begin with.

to be fair - I also met doctors who appeared to be competent and afaict didn't take advantage of my situation.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#279

some cheaters are actually good at what they cheat about and simply cheat to obtain additional advantage. the post seems pretty whiny to me. morally he's right but we happen to live in a "doggy-dog" world and moral codes are promoted by successful cheaters to keep the plebs under control. I don't want to justify cheating but it's game theoretic conclusion that you either play the game by the by the rules and most lik…

The term is "dog-eat-dog" by the way.

[deleted]

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#280

Reading some of the comments in this thread I'm surprised. It seems that a substantial number of people think one of the following: a.) cheating on interviews is ok, because interviews don't reflect the actual job b.) this is acceptable because the promotion process is distinct from the interview process or c.) that the cheaters clearly are skilled after all because of all their success, as evidenced by being promote…

Sadly it seems tech hiring wants to optimize for cheating by putting a lot of importance on tests and credentials. Deemphasize these, and assess candidates more holistically, and cheating is no longer a factor. It’s easy to cheat on a test, or get a credential you don’t deserve, but these are amazingly treated as the solution rather than the cause of cheating.
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